Thread-topic: Neutral gray paint for color environment and accurate color viewing conditions
User-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618
I am setting up a new color area and need to paint the walls of the room
neutral gray. I know there's a paint from Graphlite (Munsell Neutral Gray
Paint (N8/P). I have read somewhere, can't remember where maybe here, that
there is a pittsburg paint formula that will achieve the proper neutral gray
color for viewing accurate color. Does anyone here have that formula?
Thanks!
Steve
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. HP 6100ps, embedded spectro, advanced profiling (Harmon, Jeff)
> 2. Re: Sunlight (Roger Breton)
> 3. Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 415 (email@hidden)
> 4. Re: Sunlight (Roger Breton)
> 5. Update: Apple computer choices for arts colleges (Peter Miles)
> 6. Re: Sunlight (Michel van Dijk)
> 7. Re: Sunlight (Beisch Clemens)
> 8. Re: Sunlight (Roger Breton)
> 9. Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut (Olivier Desmaison)
> 10. Re: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut (Beisch Clemens)
> 11. RE: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut (Olivier Desmaison)
> 12. Re: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut (Beisch Clemens)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:01:03 -0800
> From: "Harmon, Jeff" <email@hidden>
> Subject: HP 6100ps, embedded spectro, advanced profiling
> To: <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <C36763BF.14266%email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Anyone have any experience with the HP Z6100ps printer? It has a built-in
> spectro and advertises like magic. It seems you need the Advanced Profiling
> package in order to edit profiles or to build an RGB profile (not sure why
> I'd want to), so if anyone has any experience with that, I'd love to hear
> your story. I'm advising on purchase for this machine and need to hear the
> word on the street. Thanks!
>
> - Jeff
>
> -------------------
> Jeff Harmon
> President and Managing Member | Colorhythm LLC
> http://www.colorhythm.com
>
> Main Office: 415-399-9921 | Fax: 415-366-3335 | Mobile: 510-710-9590
> Levi's Office (HA4/B12): 415-501-1780
>
> email@hidden
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:33:53 -0500
> From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Sunlight
> To: email@hidden, ColorSync <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <C367BFD1.224D4%email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hello Michael,
>
>> This is probably because sunlight travels through a thicker layer of
>> atmosphere, when it is 'lower' than in summer. The more atmosphere light
>> passes through, the more it filters out UV.
>>
>> Michel van Dijk
>
> Well, after some googling+reading, I did come across information to the
> effect that UV content is affected by seasonal change and zenithal angle.
> So, the more perpendicular the sun relative to the earth surface, the more
> penetrating the UV radiation. And vice-versa. The only thing I wonder, now,
> is when was D50 measured? I mean, in which season of the year? I'm probably
> doing my measurements in the wrong time of the year to ever hope to reach
> any agreement with the D50 published CIE data -- Murphy's law.
>
> It will be interesting to see how different will the 400 to 450 nm range of
> my spectral distribution change with seasons.
>
> Color. It is never ending.
>
> Roger Breton
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:50:56 +1100
> From: email@hidden
> Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 415
> To: email@hidden
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Roger,
>
> I feel like I might be stating the obvious but as Newton demonstrated long ago
> all electromagnetic
> radiaiton
> and specifically light, not just UV, is refracted at different angles when
> passsing through a medium of
> different density due to the varying wavelenghts. This applies, I would
> imagine, to our atmosphere,
> strstosphere and all the other 'spheres' between us and space. It stands to
> reason that 'daylight'
> will be different at diffetent times of the day, month and year as well as at
> different parts of the globe.
> I use to assume that D50 would be defined as 'daylight' at Noon on the equator
> at the equinox or
> something as relatively specific and unbiased. However, I have since been
> informed by someone
> better educated than myself i these matters that it actually corresponds to
> noon at a particular place
> (where someone first decided to measure and specify it?!) in North America.
> The name of the place
> escapes me but it did seem a bit arbitrary.
>
> Mark Stegman
>
> Quoting email@hidden:
>
>> Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 400 (Gerke, Debbie)
>> 2. Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 401 (Gerke, Debbie)
>> 3. Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 402 (Gerke, Debbie)
>> 4. Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 403 (Gerke, Debbie)
>> 5. Re: Sunlight (Michel van Dijk)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:05:01 -0600
>> From: "Gerke, Debbie" <email@hidden>
>> Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 400
>> To: <email@hidden>
>> Message-ID: <C366F42D.162D%email@hidden>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> I will be out of the office from November 12-16. If you need
>> immediate
>> assistance please contact Patti Neilon at email@hidden. I will
>> be
>> back in the office on Monday, Nov. 19.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:05:01 -0600
>> From: "Gerke, Debbie" <email@hidden>
>> Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 401
>> To: <email@hidden>
>> Message-ID: <C366F42D.162E%email@hidden>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> I will be out of the office from November 12-16. If you need
>> immediate
>> assistance please contact Patti Neilon at email@hidden. I will
>> be
>> back in the office on Monday, Nov. 19.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:05:01 -0600
>> From: "Gerke, Debbie" <email@hidden>
>> Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 402
>> To: <email@hidden>
>> Message-ID: <C366F42D.162F%email@hidden>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> I will be out of the office from November 12-16. If you need
>> immediate
>> assistance please contact Patti Neilon at email@hidden. I will
>> be
>> back in the office on Monday, Nov. 19.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:05:01 -0600
>> From: "Gerke, Debbie" <email@hidden>
>> Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 403
>> To: <email@hidden>
>> Message-ID: <C366F42D.1631%email@hidden>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> I will be out of the office from November 12-16. If you need
>> immediate
>> assistance please contact Patti Neilon at email@hidden. I will
>> be
>> back in the office on Monday, Nov. 19.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:14:48 +0100
>> From: Michel van Dijk <email@hidden>
>> Subject: Re: Sunlight
>> To: Apple Colorsync-user-list <email@hidden>
>> Message-ID: <1195485287.8360.19.camel@localhost>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>> Hello Roger,
>>
>>> Well, this idea that the amount of UV changes thoughout the season
>> is
>>> something new to me and worth investigating, as you noted, with
>> NASA or
>>> other public sources of sun's irradiance data on the internet.
>>
>> This is probably because sunlight travels through a thicker layer of
>> atmosphere, when it is 'lower' than in summer. The more atmosphere
>> light
>> passes through, the more it filters out UV.
>>
>> Greets,
>> Michel van Dijk
>>
>>
>> --
>> Midox Color
>> www.midox.nl
>> +31 (0)70 - 71 10 353
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Colorsync-users mailing list
>> email@hidden
>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users
>>
>> End of Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 4, Issue 415
>> ***********************************************
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:09:22 -0500
> From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Sunlight
> To: email@hidden, ColorSync <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <C367C822.224DD%email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>> However, I have since been informed by someone
>> better educated than myself i these matters that it actually corresponds to
>> noon at a particular place
>> (where someone first decided to measure and specify it?!) in North America.
>> The name of the place
>> escapes me but it did seem a bit arbitrary.
>>
>> Mark Stegman
>
> Yes, the litterature I have says that it was measured in North America in
> Washington DC, Rochester NY and Ottawa, Canada, if I'm not mistaking. Maybe
> northern Europe too? I'm not 100% sure. But it looks like those were places
> where some of the CIE color scientists working on the project can be found!
>
> But I fail to remember or actually never thought about the seasons I which
> these measurements were carried out. I thought, naively perhaps, that D50 is
> D50, irregardless of the time of the year but I realize know 'there's more
> than meets the eye' with this business of D50. I'll try to find further data
> and let you know if I come across something meaningful.
>
> Thank's for your help!
>
> Roger Breton
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:57:10 +1300
> From: Peter Miles <email@hidden>
> Subject: Update: Apple computer choices for arts colleges
> To: ColorSync List <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Update
> Previously I had posted to this list that with apples change to the
> new silver 20 inch iMac, that our university was very worried because
> it was faced with a greatly reduced choice of Apple computers for our
> Mac labs that service its creative arts colleges. Essentially it was
> down to Apple Mac pros or Mac mini's. And Mac minis weren't going to
> cut it. It was looking really expensive for our university for when
> the 3-year lease expired in our Mac labs and it was time to lease new
> ones, with only Mac pros on the menu.
> This was because the 20-inch iMacs that we use in some of our labs,
> were no longer suitable for adjusting image appearance due to the
> display panel on the new silver versions of the 20 inch iMac changing
> contrast with *any* change of viewing angle.
>
> Apple 24-inch iMac
> At the time I was unable to test the 24-inch iMac and assumed it had
> changed for the worse too. I finally received a 24 in silver iMac for
> evaluation and I felt very relieved when the display panel on the 24
> inch silver iMac proved to be very different to the 20-inch model. It
> didn't suffer the contrast change problems of the silver 20-inch iMac
> and was quite suitable for our entry and mid level graphics display /
> photography needs in our colleges.
>
> I do hope that apple changes the panel in the 20-inch iMac to
> something like the ones in the 24-inch iMac in the future. The 20-
> inch iMac use to be a great entry-level computer for our graduating
> photography students.
>
>
>
> Regards
> Peter Miles
>
> Photography Technician
> Massey University
> Wellington
> New Zealand.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:18:21 +0100
> From: Michel van Dijk <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Sunlight
> To: Apple Colorsync-user-list <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <1195539500.9206.70.camel@localhost>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Wikipedia on D65:
> "roughly midday sun in Western / Northern Europe"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D65
>
> I don't have these texts, but might conditions like location and time of
> year be described in CIE 15.2 Colorimetry or ISO/CIE 15026?
>
> However, with the sun's activity having changed/increased since
> 1931/1964, readings today are bound to differ. Plus the state the
> different layers in the atmosphere are in fluctuates, as does the
> weather, so both light source and diffuser are never really consistent.
> (No offence towards the sun of course.)
>
> Still, a good idea to take a measurement every once in a while. On a
> clear day that is...
>
>
> Greets,
> Michel van Dijk
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:08:27 +0100
> From: Beisch Clemens <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Sunlight
> To: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
> Cc: ColorSync Mailing List Users <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> Am 20.11.2007 um 04:33 schrieb Roger Breton:
>
>> The only thing I wonder, now,
>> is when was D50 measured?
>
> it is long ago, that I was reading about D50, D65 and so on.
> But if I remember it correctly, D50 und D65 were never measured from
> real sunlight.
>
> They are standards based on a "technical daylight reproduction".
> The best they technicaly could get at that time.
>
> Tom Lianza is allways a very good source for questions like this.
> Maybe he can jump into the thread.
>
> Best regards,
> Clemens Beisch
>
> ==============================
> colorXact - colors are coming home!
>
> First online ICC profiling software
>
> register for free
> http://www.colorxact.eu
> ==============================
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:34:08 -0500
> From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Sunlight
> To: Beisch Clemens <email@hidden>
> Cc: ColorSync <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <C3683E70.224F7%email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Dear Clemens and Michael,
>
> Maybe good old Wisjeky & Stiles's Color science has a section on the D
> series illuminant? I'll take a look. But what I can remember, it was based
> on real 'daylight' data collected in northern hemisphere latitudes and
> massaged statistically to yield some coefficients with which the whole
> series of Dxx illuminant SPD could be generated. In CIE 15.2 there is a
> mention on some report having to do with the D series presented by Wisjeck
> in the early 60's to the CIE. Maybe that's when the development of the D
> series traces back to that time?
>
>> it is long ago, that I was reading about D50, D65 and so on.
>> But if I remember it correctly, D50 und D65 were never measured from
>> real sunlight.
>>
>> They are standards based on a "technical daylight reproduction".
>> The best they technicaly could get at that time.
>>
>> Tom Lianza is allways a very good source for questions like this.
>> Maybe he can jump into the thread.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Clemens Beisch
>>
>> ==============================
>> colorXact - colors are coming home!
>>
>> First online ICC profiling software
>>
>> register for free
>> http://www.colorxact.eu
>> ==============================
>>
>
> Roger Breton
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:41:25 +0100
> From: "Olivier Desmaison" <email@hidden>
> Subject: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut
> To: "'ColorSync'" <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I read a strange statement: printer CMYK gamuts are narrower than the same
> RGB gamuts. Since it's the same device I'm puzzled.
> Olivier
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:16:46 +0100
> From: Beisch Clemens <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut
> To: ColorSync List Users Mailing <email@hidden>
> Cc: email@hidden
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Am 20.11.2007 um 13:41 schrieb Olivier Desmaison:
>
>> I read a strange statement: printer CMYK gamuts are narrower than
>> the same
>> RGB gamuts. Since it's the same device I'm puzzled.
>> Olivier
>
> Hallo Oliver,
>
> this statemant is correct, as long as you are talking about the same
> device.
>
> For example:
>
> You can make a RGB printer profile for an Epson printer, using the
> manufactures printer driver
> or a CMYK printer profile using a RIP.
>
> Printing RGB 0-255-255 to the printer using the epson driver will
> result in a color patch of 100% cyan.
> Printing RGB 255-0-255 to the printer using the epson driver will
> result in a color patch of 100% magenta.
> Printing RGB 255-255-0 to the printer using the epson driver will
> result in a color patch of 100% yellow.
>
> So, when you are measuring this patches using a spectro, you'll end
> up with the same Lab values like
> printing the CMYK patches with a RIP (my assumption in this example
> is, that both, the printer driver and the
> RIP are pre linearized to the same amount of ink per chanel).
>
> The gamut must be the same.
>
> The story of the small CMYK gamut comes from the fact, that most of
> the printing presses deliver a smaller
> gamut than RGB input devices like scanners, digicams or syntetic RGB
> profiles like ADOBE RGB etc.
> But this is a completely different strory.
>
> Best regards,
> Clemens Beisch
>
> ==============================
> colorXact - colors are coming home!
>
> First online ICC profiling software
>
> register for free
> http://www.colorxact.eu
> ==============================
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:11:06 +0100
> From: "Olivier Desmaison" <email@hidden>
> Subject: RE: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut
> To: "'Beisch Clemens'" <email@hidden>, "'ColorSync List Users
> Mailing'" <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thanks Clemens.
> So you're saying the gamuts are similar in both CMYK and RGB for a given
> printer (K3) on a given medium, correct ?
> I had a quick look at ColorXact site, worth visiting for sure.
> Olivier
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Beisch Clemens [mailto:email@hidden]
> Envoyé : mardi 20 novembre 2007 14:17
> À : ColorSync List Users Mailing
> Cc : email@hidden
> Objet : Re: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut
>
> Am 20.11.2007 um 13:41 schrieb Olivier Desmaison:
>
>> I read a strange statement: printer CMYK gamuts are narrower than
>> the same
>> RGB gamuts. Since it's the same device I'm puzzled.
>> Olivier
>
> Hallo Oliver,
>
> this statemant is correct, as long as you are talking about the same
> device.
>
> For example:
>
> You can make a RGB printer profile for an Epson printer, using the
> manufactures printer driver
> or a CMYK printer profile using a RIP.
>
> Printing RGB 0-255-255 to the printer using the epson driver will
> result in a color patch of 100% cyan.
> Printing RGB 255-0-255 to the printer using the epson driver will
> result in a color patch of 100% magenta.
> Printing RGB 255-255-0 to the printer using the epson driver will
> result in a color patch of 100% yellow.
>
> So, when you are measuring this patches using a spectro, you'll end
> up with the same Lab values like
> printing the CMYK patches with a RIP (my assumption in this example
> is, that both, the printer driver and the
> RIP are pre linearized to the same amount of ink per chanel).
>
> The gamut must be the same.
>
> The story of the small CMYK gamut comes from the fact, that most of
> the printing presses deliver a smaller
> gamut than RGB input devices like scanners, digicams or syntetic RGB
> profiles like ADOBE RGB etc.
> But this is a completely different strory.
>
> Best regards,
> Clemens Beisch
>
> ==============================
> colorXact - colors are coming home!
>
> First online ICC profiling software
>
> register for free
> http://www.colorxact.eu
> ==============================
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:30:38 +0100
> From: Beisch Clemens <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut
> To: ColorSync List Users Mailing <email@hidden>
> Cc: email@hidden
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Am 20.11.2007 um 15:11 schrieb Olivier Desmaison:
>
>> Thanks Clemens.
>> So you're saying the gamuts are similar in both CMYK and RGB for a
>> given
>> printer (K3) on a given medium, correct ?
>
> correct.
> Just a mathematics game between RGB and CMY device colors.
>
>> I had a quick look at ColorXact site, worth visiting for sure.
>
> thank's
>
>> Olivier
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Beisch Clemens [mailto:email@hidden]
>> Envoyé : mardi 20 novembre 2007 14:17
>> À : ColorSync List Users Mailing
>> Cc : email@hidden
>> Objet : Re: Printer CMYK vs RGB gamut
>>
>> Am 20.11.2007 um 13:41 schrieb Olivier Desmaison:
>>
>>> I read a strange statement: printer CMYK gamuts are narrower than
>>> the same
>>> RGB gamuts. Since it's the same device I'm puzzled.
>>> Olivier
>>
>> Hallo Oliver,
>>
>> this statemant is correct, as long as you are talking about the same
>> device.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> You can make a RGB printer profile for an Epson printer, using the
>> manufactures printer driver
>> or a CMYK printer profile using a RIP.
>>
>> Printing RGB 0-255-255 to the printer using the epson driver will
>> result in a color patch of 100% cyan.
>> Printing RGB 255-0-255 to the printer using the epson driver will
>> result in a color patch of 100% magenta.
>> Printing RGB 255-255-0 to the printer using the epson driver will
>> result in a color patch of 100% yellow.
>>
>> So, when you are measuring this patches using a spectro, you'll end
>> up with the same Lab values like
>> printing the CMYK patches with a RIP (my assumption in this example
>> is, that both, the printer driver and the
>> RIP are pre linearized to the same amount of ink per chanel).
>>
>> The gamut must be the same.
>>
>> The story of the small CMYK gamut comes from the fact, that most of
>> the printing presses deliver a smaller
>> gamut than RGB input devices like scanners, digicams or syntetic RGB
>> profiles like ADOBE RGB etc.
>> But this is a completely different strory.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Clemens Beisch
>
>
> ==============================
> colorXact - colors are coming home!
>
> First online ICC profiling software
>
> register for free
> http://www.colorxact.eu
> ==============================
>
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