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Apple Java Plugin Needs (was Re: Java Messages and Java Console are different in Jaguar)

On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 11:51:31AM -0700, email@hidden wrote:
> Message: 1
> From: "Mickey Segal" <email@hidden>
> To: "Java List Apple" <email@hidden>
> Subject: Java Messages and Java Console are different in Jaguar; Java
> Messages is still blank
> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:46:50 -0400
>
> Using the "Java Plugin Settings" application that is new to OS 10.2, one
> can select "Show Java Console", which is off by default. After setting "Show
> Java Console" a window named "Java Console" shows up when any applet is run in
> Internet Explorer, regardless of whether the applet writes to the Java
> Console.
> Unfortunately the "Java Messages" menu item in Internet Explorer still
> brings up a "Java Messages" window but nothing appears in this window.
> Ideally it would bring up a functional Java Console.
> The behavior on many other browser environments is for the Java Console to
> stay closed unless the opens it using a menu command..
> The current behavior may reflect a pre-Jaguar version of Internet Explorer
> not being Jaguar-aware. Is fixing this non-obvious enough that we need to
> file bug reports about it?


Actually, there's a whole lot of obvious things going on with Java in
browsers that need Apple's attention.

I don't think Apple can solve this one at all, without Microsoft's help,
because I don't think there's any defined interface for the browser to
tell the plugin to show the console.

Im my experience, the "Java Messages" item has always shown me a blank
window, but the actual Java console output was in /var/tmp/console.log.

Anyways, what Apple really needs to do, for Mozilla/Netscape and all the
Gecko-based browsers, is to support the OJI interface(*). This is the same
interface that Sun supports on all the other platforms (i.e Windows and
other unices), and I imagine that Apple has access to all of this code.
Also, supporting this interface is similar to the work that Apple's own
QuickTime group has already done to make QuickTime scriptable.

Doing this would provide the following functional parity w.r.t. other
platforms, which is currently missing on jaguar/mozilla (and either
missing or unstable on Puma/mozilla)

1) Full LiveConnect support (i.e. Java -> Javascript and the other way
around). This is a critical piece of connectivity for web based
applications, and is available everywhere else except on the
Mac. (with Jaguar, you'll only get it if you run Netscape under
classic).

2) Finally, a proper Java Console (available from menus, etc, and
interactive, so developers can query running tasks, etc).


Apple's support of the sun java plugin stuff so far has been a move in
the right direction, supporting some of the nice caching technologies
that are there (but aren't too applicable to me, as the Applets I develop
are usually less than 100K each), and gives us a great Java Console.

However, the Java Console is pretty hideously administered right now
(which I'm sure they know), and they desperately need to support
LiveConnect.

I don't know if they're working on this or not; I've spoken with people
on the Netscape side, and have gotten mixed reports. I don't know who
to talk to on the Apple side. I have filed bugs detailing these needs,
but I haven't actually heard from anyone in the Java Group regarding
their plans.

I do know, that users of our products on the Mac are getting
shortchanged by this, and are receiving a sub-par experience because of
these issues.

Thanks for letting me vent (it seems like everyone else is) :)

(P.S. I don't really care about Java 1.4. 1.3.1 with OJI support would
be fine).

-SteveK

(*) The OJI (Open Java Interface) is a small set of extensions to the
Mozilla Plugin Interface which allow for tight integration between the
Java Plugin and the Browser. See http://www.mozilla.org/oji/

--
Steve Kann - Chief Engineer - 520 8th Ave #2300 NY 10018 - (212) 533-1775
HorizonLive.com - collaborate . interact . learn
"The box said 'Requires Windows 95, NT, or better,' so I installed Linux."
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