Thread-topic: Are we still being polite about Java 6 ?
User-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618
> From: Joshua Portway <email@hidden>
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:45:34 +0100
> Looking back through the archives it seems as if everyone on this list
> decided to be polite and not to discuss the matter any further. Is
> this still the time to be polite? As far as I can tell Apple is being
> unbelievably rude to thousands of developers by leaving them hanging
> with (as far as I can tell) absolutely no information whatsoever about
> the future of Java on OSX. If anyone can point me to an announcement
> about this from Apple I'd be ecstatic, but as far as I can tell they
> have been totally silent - despite upwards of 13000 results on a
> search for 13949712720901ForOSX now.
I've resisted adding to the noise on this issue, but it just keeps coming
up, and I'm surprised that people continue to tilt at this particular
windmill. The days when Apple considered Java to be a central part of the
Mac platform are gone, and I can't see them returning. I think they would
actually drop desktop Java support completely if they could. They won't
though-while Java on the desktop is not exactly widespread, it remains
something that any serious desktop PC just has to be able to do.
> Since people's livelihoods depend on having some information about
> Apple's policy, I find this silence unbelievably disrespectful of
> their developers. What justifiable reason is there to refuse to make
> an announcement about the matter? Either they have dropped Java or
> not. If they are still working on it, then any kind of announcement to
> that effect - even without a release date - would be enthusiastically
> received by tens of thousands of Java developers.
Apple's position on Java, while immensely aggravating from the point of view
of Java developers, still seems quite clear:
1. Developing Cocoa applications in Java is no longer supported
2. Java 1.4 and 5 are fully supported, and are being worked on
3. Nothing has been said publicly regarding Java 6
The only sensible course regarding Java 6 is to petition Apple to announce
support for it (but not on this list!), but also assume it will never exist
unless Apple indicates otherwise. On the matter of "are they working on Java
in general", clearly they are - the enhancements to Java 5 in Leopard are
not trivial.
"Why don't they communicate their plans?", "Why don't they release their
code to OpenJDK?", "why don't they do X?". Apple is definitely putting as
few resources into Java as they think they can get away with. Doing any of
the things suggested by the Java community involves some additional level of
commitment, which Apple has so far decided isn't worth it. It's just a
cost-benefit analysis (although it can be argued they have miscalculated -
but such arguments are also wasted on this list). By the way: if you think
open sourcing their code is easy, you haven't followed the process Sun went
through in creating OpenJDK in the first place. And, yes, communicating
plans does involve making a commitment, even if it's a fairly small one.
This just shows how low Java has fallen on Apple's list of priorities.
Now I'll move into complete speculation, which can be a fun exercise:
Apple will one day support Java 6 on Leopard. The priority will go up over
time as less and less Java stuff works on the Mac.
Apple is clearly pissing off Java developers and even forcing many to drop
Mac support, but they don't seem to care. Why don't they care? Well, try to
imagine the strategic goals that Steve Jobs has for Apple for the next ten
years. I don't know what they are, but I'm certain that none of them involve
desktop Java even tangentially. Apple's long-term strategy seems to be
coalescing around two platforms: Mac and "Touch" (iPhone/iPod
Touch/hypothetical iTablet). Both of these platforms will consume web
services (.Mac, iTunes, et al), some of which will be provided by
server-side Java, but Java will not be a major feature of either of them.
Apple will continue to support desktop Java on the Mac (albeit poorly by our
standards) for the foreseeable future, just like it will continue to support
Perl. I'm sorry to say, however, that Apple will never support Java on the
"Touch" platform. Apple simply has no reason to put resources into that,
even though it is technically feasible due to the common OS X base.
The wildcard in all of this is the OpenJDK. I see that as the only long-term
hope for a truly top of the line Java implementation on both Mac and
"Touch". And the possibility of Apple deciding to join the OpenJDK effort in
the future cannot be ruled out. I expect that every so often Apple will
rerun the cost-benefit analysis on Java and may one day decide that OpenJDK
is the way to go... or not.
In summary, Apple's Java is not going to die, but the current status quo is
very unlikely to improve. By all means make the arguments for a change (but,
again, not on this list), I won't disagree with you, but I think the
fundamental mismatch between Apple's long-term strategy and desktop Java is
pretty much immovable at this point. The best hope for a significantly
better Mac Java is SoyLatte and OpenJDK.
The fun thing about Apple is they could make an announcement tomorrow that
proves me completely wrong.
P.S. When I characterise Apple's Java support as poor, I mean "poorly
resourced". I think the engineers working on Apple Java are doing a great
job.
--
Lachlan O'Dea
CA
Principal Software Engineer
tel: +61 3 9944 6674
fax: +61 3 9944 6599
mobile: +61 412 390 650
email@hidden
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even
remotely true!" - Homer Simpson
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