Todd O'Bryan wrote:
| So, it seems that most of what Sun provides is just Java code for
| various added APIs with new releases of software.
|
| ...
|
| Or is there more going on here than I think?
I replied:
| Much more. Many of the library classes call native methods to do the
| heavy lifting; every one of those methods has to be implemented and
| debugged anew for each platform. (For example, the "concurrency"
| classes require the implementation of the machinery which allows
| lock-free access to variables shared across threads.)
Ken wrote:
| I disagree with this assertion,
You disagree with the assertion that "there are many native methods, and they must all be implemented and debugged"? As that's the only assertion I made, that's the only assertion you *can* be disagreeing with. Explain, then, how Java--any version--can be ported *without* implementing all those native methods.
(Well, on rereading, I notice I also stated that the "concurrency" classes require implementation of lock-free variable access. Perhaps that's the assertion you disagree with. If so, then you may want to read the various papers by the designers and implementers, as that's where I got the information from.)
| if it is meant to imply that Apple
| coudnt write a 1.5 version for older mac OSs,
How *do* people keep reading such off-base "implications" into perfectly straightforward explanations?
I suggest you read what I wrote again. Now, look for the place I said "there can't be a 1.5 for 10.3 or earlier." Then, point it out to me, because I like to stay aware of what I say, and apparently I missed that one.
As an extra-credit exercise, explain the logic whereby "there are many native methods, and they must all be implemented and debugged" gets construed to mean "Apple can't implement and debug those methods for 10.3 and earlier."
| the low-level OS abstraction layers can almost ALWAYS be implemented
| even on old platforms, or at least emulated (except for some overly
| complex native window stuff).
Notice: even *you* hedge your claims: "*almost* always". Do you know for a fact that this is *not* one of the exceptions to the general rule? (Since you seem prone to putting words in that aren't actually there: no, I am not claiming it *is* an exception. I don't know whether it is or not.)
And what about overly complex networking stuff? Or overly complex synchronization stuff? Or...? To port Java 1.5, you have to port *all* of it, even the "overly complex ... stuff".
| I truly regard Apples lack of commitment to providing newer JVM
| availability, for their older OSs, as a greedy sales motivator
Bingo! Give this man a prize! You got it the first time!
You clearly don't understand what kind of organization Apple is. Apple is a *business*. Apple is *not* a charity. Apple is a *business*, and businesses are run to maximize *profit*. How does Apple make a profit? By *selling* stuff. How does Apple encourage people to buy what they're selling? By using "greedy sales motivators". Businesses that sell stuff *without* using "greedy sales motivators" *fail*. Thus, it is those very "greedy sales motivators" that are keeping Apple in business, turning out the Macintoshes and iPods you know and love.
| Making the 1.5(5) jvm only available for Panther is just bad
| for the community,
Again: Apple is not a charity. Apple is not *trying* to improve the community. They are trying to *make money*. If they can improve the community *and* make money, they probably will. But making money takes first priority. If they don't make money, they go bankrupt, and cease to exist.
| becasue it produces as many compatibility problems
| as, say, using native code would.
Can you offer evidence in support of this claim? (Again, since you're weak on reading what's actually written: I am *not* claiming that that there are *no* compatibility problems. I'm questioning your claim that, by not backporting Java 1.5, Apple is creating *as many* compatibility problems as by making people write in Objective-C instead.)
| Sad.
Yes, not seeing reality for what it is *is* sad.
Glen Fisher
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