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Re: Java 1.5 and tiger



Dmitry,

You make some interesting points.

First, I guess I forgot to mention that I am a student. The ADC Select membership is both hard for me to justify as a student developer and out of my price range. The student ADC membership package comes in at 99$US. As a student with little time to spend actually developing an application that will generate commercial revenue anything more than the student package is hard for me to justify. While the student membership does get me the monthly mailings and the GM releases of the client OS X it does not give us access to the advanced seeding program.

Considering that the student price of OS X is 99$US if i remember correctly, the ADC student membership pays for itself on years when a new OS is released. What I am suggesting is that Apple should find a balance between the current advanced seeding and full technical support for larger corporations and not mentioning any specifics or providing any previews.

I fully realize that clients will not have Java 5.0 applications for a little while still but providing previews to developers is an entirely different matter. This is especially true since final versions have been out on other platforms for 7 months now. This removes competitive advantage from developers of free software or students or anyone who can not afford a select membership but have still given a considerable amount of money to Apple by purchasing hardware and multiple releases of OS X in the hopes of being strategically positioned for java development. I clearly remember Steve Jobs claiming, at a WWDC a couple years ago, that OS X was THE best Java development platform, that Apple was pledging full support for Java, and that Java release cycles would be shorter. I know that is one of the many reasons I choose to switch to Mac and get a PowerBook when I started university.

A perfect example would be the situation I am currently in. I will be writing an undergraduate thesis this summer. I was going to write my prototype applications to use Java 5.0 for several reasons. Now that 5.0 is not officially a part of Tiger not only do I have to change my plans for this summer but it also means that I don't have access to hardware that will allow me to learn the ins and outs of 5.0. I am a student after all, isn't it in the best interest of every company that students be on the cutting edge?

The reason I posted to this list is because I know product managers etc. at Apple read it. My criticisms are only constructive and concrete; keep offering seeding and support to select members but offer seeding to all other members WITHOUT the support. By all definitions of the term a developer preview is just that and developers don't expect it to be rock solid. If we are really stuck then there are community forums or better yet we could have a mailing list for all developers under the ADC NDA. There are benefits all around for Apple: more committed developer base (do I even need to go into explaining why this is good, just google Steve Balmer's video), developers won't have to choose between cutting edge and Mac, and Apple essentially has a bunch of developers doing beta testing for free. I'm sure I could think of more.

Shawn Morel


On 12-Apr-05, at 12:21 PM, Dmitry Markman wrote:

if you paid for ADC select membership you can test
latest Apple's Java 5 implementation
that release is in a pretty good shape (my opinion)
at least all our GUI applications run good enough.
but we do have problems with Java 5 implementation on Linux
so far our applications run much better on Macintosh (J2SE 5) and PC (Windows) (J2SE 5)
than on PC(Linux) (J2SE 5)


so I already gave my money to Apple
and I'm really satisfied what I got for my money
if Java 5 is really important for your organization or for your business
I would recommend to buy select membership so you can work with your beloved :-)
Java 5
first DP was released in November and you could polish your applications for almost 5 months now
and reports bugs to Apple to help them to resolve all issues (just like we did)
and I have to say Apple's engineers really fixed many problems that we reported
we started with permanent crashing in November/December
but now we have practically flawless running of our applications


bottom line: $500 is good price for what you get, especially if your organization will pay for it
and it should if Java on Macintosh is really important for your organization


BTW: as you may know Britannica Encyclopedia software is pretty good (and huge)
Java GUI application and it does have a problem with Java 5 (I believe on Windows platform too)
but they definitely will fix it (that related to XML parsing) for 2006 release
what I want to say that majority of client software are not ready for Java 5 yet
(it usually takes ~ 1 year) so Apple isn't late especially that I believe final
Apple's Java 5 implementation will correspond to SUN Java 5 Update 2 release




On Apr 12, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Michael Rasmussen wrote:

  I'm resolved.  Apple is not getting any of my money for Tiger until
it includes Java 1.5.  That was the only major feature of Tiger that
would have justified me buying it, and since it is not there, I won't
pay.  If 1.5 is important to you, I encourage you to do the same.


Dmitry Markman

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References: 
 >Java 1.5 and tiger (From: "Steele, Josh" <email@hidden>)
 >Re: Java 1.5 and tiger (From: Shawn Morel <email@hidden>)
 >Re: Java 1.5 and tiger (From: Michael Rasmussen <email@hidden>)
 >Re: Java 1.5 and tiger (From: Dmitry Markman <email@hidden>)



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