Jim Youll wrote:
| OK I have been upset on three continents and 13 time zones over the
| past month by the flamage on this list and maybe I'm not the only one.
| When i think about conserving "bandwidth" it's not that the 200 quoted
| lines are using net resources badly, but that they are using human
| resources badly.
And you think a Usenet group will be any better? Here, there's at least the
*threat* of moderation, not to mention an almost complete absence of spam. A
Usenet group can be--and often is--chock-full of postings by anyone at all,
on any subject that the poster cares to mention. (The comp.lang.c[++] groups
are currently being plagued by someone trying to bring religion to the
godless programmers.) There's also the minor problem that any e-mail address
used to post to Usenet is subject to scavenging by spammers.
Are you aware that there's a Usenet group for Objective-C, Apple's "other"
language? It gets far less traffic than the Apple cocoa-dev list. The
Usenet group also has as one of its more regular posters a man who takes
every chance he's given to condemn Apple and its implementation of
Objective-C. Threads there have a strong tendency to degenerate into "Apple
is evil"/"No, it's not" arguments. "Different" doesn't necessarily equal
"better".
| I very much need the content of the list's asserted contract with
| members -- as a Java developer using an Apple platform. However there
| is not just noise here not but a lot of upsetting language and ad
| hominem attacks that do nothing whatever to further our work.
I can only assume that you haven't spend time reading Usenet postings. If
you had, you'd have seen that Usenet is just as full of "upsetting language
and ad hominem attacks that do nothing whatever to further our work" as
java-dev is, if not more so. I've seen much more flat-out elitism, rudeness,
and name-calling on comp.lang.c++ than I've ever seen here.
| And
| programming on Apple is not just work for me but right now important to
| the survival of my company, and I've got to get it right.
If your company is *that* dependent on Macs, then why are you using Java,
and not Objective-C? You're handicapping yourself against all the people who
can take full advantage of the OS without having to jump through hoops to do
so, and who get all the shiny new toys *immediately*, without having to wait
for Apple to create Java versions of them.
| To do that I
| need to learn from others who are smarter than me. I think they might
| be on this list but I can't hear a word they're saying.
As most of the postings I see are either questions or answers to those
questions, I suspect you've just insulted the very people you want to
attract. Are you saying that you're already smarter than all the people
answering, or are you saying that all those posts are unwanted noise? As one
of the frequent posters--and, therefore, presumably one of the people
drowning out the *real* experts with trivia and vituperation--I don't see
how to read into this anything but a statement that my presence isn't wanted
on your list. Perhaps it isn't. I'm willing to oblige.
| Messages are not moderated. Excessive upsetting
| flamage, should the list even attract any discussion, will not be
| permitted.
Upsetting to *who*? Not permitted by *who*? There's no moderator. Without a
moderator, there's no one to stop the flaming. (And who defines what's a
"flame"? Do you judge by the thinnest or thickest skin? What do you do about
person A getting offended on person B's behalf? What do you do about someone
who's offended by *anything*? Etc.)
Glen Fisher
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