August 2011 - colorsync-users

Re: Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade (iteration)
by Marc Levine 29 Aug '11

29 Aug '11

Hi all, I think Terry's explanation of iteration is decent. The iteration function will not give you a whopping difference in the profile, but it can be appreciable. For example, I made an “iteration” or “optimization” or “color edification” chart that is comprised of about 2500 patches… all gray balance. Technically, it ranges from L*=0 to L*=100, with all rotations of a* and b* in +/- 1 and 2 increments. If you think about the gray axis of a profile as the “straw in the center of your drink”, think of this as a “really fat straw” with a buttload of patches crammed into it. Now keep in mind that, if you just tried to evenly disperse that many patches into that small of a region, it would be impossible to get a regular sampling of data. However, because i1Profiler dynamically creates those patches based on the profile you’ve already made, it automatically distributes them evenly. The net-net of all this is that, when using this chart, I typically see about a .5dE reduction. Sometime a lot more. Sometime a lot less. It’s largely dependent on how “regular” your printer is. Fiber anyone? What I really like about it is that i usually pick up an L* in both weight and purity. The black gets blacker and the shadow grays get cleaner… more neutral. If you’ve ever taken a good close look as the gray curves of a MonacoPROFILER profile, the horse tends to run off the track a bit once you get past the 3/4 shadow. While i1Profier already does a better job of handling this...the extra iteration can really snap that behavior back in. Heyah! I did some ungodly iteration tests with some huge charts and was able to widdle the dE down quite a bit. However, it was fairly consuming (in time/paper/ink) considering that I was well within the standard tolerance of most print specifications with my initial profile. I really do like the gray chart if I do say so myself. It fits on 1 page big page of for an iSis XL. If anybody would like me to post it, please let me know. Thanks all, Marc marc(a)colormanagement.com

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Off Topic - For Sale Gretag Macbeth Colorchecker SG
by NGW32 26 Aug '11

26 Aug '11

Gretag Macbeth Colorchecker SG - unused. Location North Dorset, UK. Will consider posting abroad. £100 + postage - price includes 20% VAT - new in UK approx. £220.00 Nick

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Re: Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade
by Mike Strickler 26 Aug '11

26 Aug '11

I don't dare quote a Terry Wyse post in my own--it would get lost. Terry: You need an editor! :-) I haven't been following this discussion, but the question has come up elsewhere. Question: Isn't the i1 Profiler iteration nothing more than a kind of round-tripping routine in which the profile is recalculated with every measurement of the printed L*a*b* values? If that's the case it would not seem to do much to overcome a shortage of samples, especially of the printer output is quirky and can't be described by smooth curves. If the improvement of the calculation for the sampled points is small, it would be smaller for the interpolated ones, which means the impact on actual images might be truly negligible. Any real-world feedback? You can add EFI XF (did someone mention ORIS?) in the list of RIPs that have 3D iterative optimization, so I'll add it. It would be nice to see this list lengthen a bit; it's a good technology that can make a noticeable difference in output quality. Mike

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Re: Monitor Calibration Problem
by Ken Fleisher 26 Aug '11

26 Aug '11

Thanks Steve. Good suggestions. I think I'll try the video card first and if that doesn't work, I'll move on to your suggestions. Sadly, I can't try anything myself. I have to wait for IT to move it all around, and I have to wait until each user can interrupt their work. So it may be a little while before I find anything out. Thanks again. Ken

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 8, Issue 197
by Barry Gorrell 26 Aug '11

26 Aug '11

Hello Dan, thank you for pointing out that scanner profiling is NOT a feature of i1 Publish Pro. We had failed to notice that fact. We've good success profiling our scanners with Monaco Profiler Platinum and were disappointed to learn that capability is not a part of i1 Publish Pro. It's been our understanding that Monaco Profilier will not run under Lion, so relying on it for doing scanner profiles won't be possible after we migrate. Are we misunderstanding something on that point? Of course we realize we could keep a workstation on Leopard just to run Monaco Profiler for profiling our scanners, but if we do that why bother upgrading at all? On Aug 26, 2011, at 3:02 PM, <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:56:42 -0400 > From: Dan Gillespie <dgillespie(a)colorgeek.com> > Subject: Re: Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade > To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Message-ID: <8D50F404-C4F3-4C9B-8E40-9F4A4E0EE6FA(a)colorgeek.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Barry, while I am not personally using Lion yet I have several piers > and customers who are and can certainly speak to the feature set of > the new i1 Profiler software. X-Rite has completely rewritten the > software from the ground up using everything they've learned from > both MONACO Profiler and ProfileMaker packages. They have developed > an entirely new profiling engine called "Prism" that I feel > generates the best profiles of either package. You also get several > features that you didn't have with Profiler such as iteration and > verification (typically RIP features - but now you can iterate > without a RIP). I would suggest you upgrade for sure! Also, you > won't find any scanner profiling abilities in i1Profiler or digital > camera profiling (which is now being done in ColorChecker Passport > software that is included - but is only DNG profiles NOT iCC > profiles). You will still be able to run either MONACO Profiler or > ProfileMaker after you upgrade as both will still be licensed on your > dongle. Hope this helps and let me know if I can help further. Oh, > and you may want to check out our website i1upgrades.com which has > all the information about upgrading. > > Dan Gillespie > The Color Management Group > > On Aug 25, 2011, at 3:03 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com > wrote: >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade >> (Barry Gorrell) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:55:07 -0400 >> From: Barry Gorrell <bgorrell(a)cecil.edu> >> Subject: Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade >> To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> Message-ID: <F6A284AD-1037-4EFD-B2AF-FE21FF6C00CB(a)cecil.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes >> >> Hello, >> >> For the past several years we've been very happy users of Monaco >> Profiler Platinum v4.7 running on a PowerMac G5 under Mac OS 10.5.8. >> It appears however if we "upgrade" to a MacPro running Mac OS 10.7 >> (Lion) our old Monaco application will no longer be supported. Thus >> we're considering "upgrading" from Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rites i1 >> Publish Pro to run under OS 10.7 and are wondering if anyone on this >> list has made a similar transition? And if so would you be willing to >> share how it's worked out for you? Does the newer i1 Publish Pro >> produce profiles of equal or superior quality to those from Monaco >> Profiler? Any other "user experience" comments would also be welcome. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Barry Gorrell >> >> VCP Lab Coordinator >> Cecil College

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Monitor Calibration Problem
by Ken Fleisher 26 Aug '11

26 Aug '11

I am having an issue with monitor calibration and am looking for input. Consider two systems, we'll call them System A and System C. Both are the same model Mac Pro with Dual-Core Intel Xeon processor running OS 10.6.8. System A has more RAM than System C, but that is the only difference. Both systems have an Eizo CG210 monitor. Calibration using ColorNavigator 6.0.0.42 on both systems using an Eye-One Pro. Here are the relevant results using the ISO 12646 Profile Quality validation color set: System A: Max dE2000 3.54; Avg dE2000 0.79 System C: Max dE2000 20.01; Avg dE2000 11.18 I next switched the two monitors so that System A has System C's monitor, and vice versa. Here are those results: System A: Max dE2000 3.41; Avg dE2000 0.64 System C: Max dE2000 20.04; Avg dE2000 11.16 I was surprised by this. Clearly it is not the System C monitor that was going bad since it produce a good calibration on System A, and the System A monitor performed poorly on System C. There must be something wrong with System C, correct? Any ideas what it could be? My first thought is the video card. Does that sound likely? How would I go about figuring this out? What are the other possible sources for this problem? I admit that this is a new one for me… Thanks for any help you can provide! Ken Fleisher

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Re: Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade
by Dan Gillespie 26 Aug '11

26 Aug '11

Barry, while I am not personally using Lion yet I have several piers and customers who are and can certainly speak to the feature set of the new i1 Profiler software. X-Rite has completely rewritten the software from the ground up using everything they've learned from both MONACO Profiler and ProfileMaker packages. They have developed an entirely new profiling engine called "Prism" that I feel generates the best profiles of either package. You also get several features that you didn't have with Profiler such as iteration and verification (typically RIP features - but now you can iterate without a RIP). I would suggest you upgrade for sure! Also, you won't find any scanner profiling abilities in i1Profiler or digital camera profiling (which is now being done in ColorChecker Passport software that is included - but is only DNG profiles NOT iCC profiles). You will still be able to run either MONACO Profiler or ProfileMaker after you upgrade as both will still be licensed on your dongle. Hope this helps and let me know if I can help further. Oh, and you may want to check out our website i1upgrades.com which has all the information about upgrading. Dan Gillespie The Color Management Group On Aug 25, 2011, at 3:03 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade > (Barry Gorrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:55:07 -0400 > From: Barry Gorrell <bgorrell(a)cecil.edu> > Subject: Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade > To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > Message-ID: <F6A284AD-1037-4EFD-B2AF-FE21FF6C00CB(a)cecil.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > Hello, > > For the past several years we've been very happy users of Monaco > Profiler Platinum v4.7 running on a PowerMac G5 under Mac OS 10.5.8. > It appears however if we "upgrade" to a MacPro running Mac OS 10.7 > (Lion) our old Monaco application will no longer be supported. Thus > we're considering "upgrading" from Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rites i1 > Publish Pro to run under OS 10.7 and are wondering if anyone on this > list has made a similar transition? And if so would you be willing to > share how it's worked out for you? Does the newer i1 Publish Pro > produce profiles of equal or superior quality to those from Monaco > Profiler? Any other "user experience" comments would also be welcome. > > Thanks in advance. > > Barry Gorrell > > VCP Lab Coordinator > Cecil College > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Colorsync-users mailing list > Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > > End of Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 8, Issue 196 > *********************************************** >

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Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rite i1 Publisher Pro Upgrade
by Barry Gorrell 24 Aug '11

24 Aug '11

Hello, For the past several years we've been very happy users of Monaco Profiler Platinum v4.7 running on a PowerMac G5 under Mac OS 10.5.8. It appears however if we "upgrade" to a MacPro running Mac OS 10.7 (Lion) our old Monaco application will no longer be supported. Thus we're considering "upgrading" from Monaco Profiler 4.7 to X-Rites i1 Publish Pro to run under OS 10.7 and are wondering if anyone on this list has made a similar transition? And if so would you be willing to share how it's worked out for you? Does the newer i1 Publish Pro produce profiles of equal or superior quality to those from Monaco Profiler? Any other "user experience" comments would also be welcome. Thanks in advance. Barry Gorrell VCP Lab Coordinator Cecil College

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Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
by Paul Sherfield 24 Aug '11

24 Aug '11

Hi all Must agree with Steve, great discussion, learning a lot. Many thanks Paul Sherfield The Missing Horse Consultancy Ltd New telephone number: 00 44 1442 207626 Mobile: 00 44 7899 906385 Fax: 0872 111 7709 http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk Follow us on: Twitter.com/missinghorse Apple Solutions Expert - Print & Publishing Member - UK TC130 Technical Advisory Group (ISO 12647 Printing Standards) UK Expert: ISO TC130/Working Group 13 on certification of printing standards Chair BPIF UK ISO 12647 Certification Steering Group Member - BPIF Technical Standards Committee Lean and green? To save money and become a greener printer, see http://www.greenprinter.co.uk http://www.keeconsultants.com Reduce your carbon footprint http://www.1010uk.org This email and any attachments may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of addressee. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, any disclosure, copying or other distribution is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete all copies from your system. Email may be susceptible to data corruption, interception and unauthorised amendment. We do not accept liability for any such corruption, interception or amendment or the consequences thereof. We do not accept liability for any action or inaction by the recipient as a result of advice or information contained within this email.

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Re: Colorimeters and third-party developer support
by Richard Wagner 24 Aug '11

24 Aug '11

On Aug 20, 2011, at 6:39 AM, Bob Frost wrote: >> I don't want one custom $350 colorimeter for every monitor I ever own, with its own custom software, and with variable compatibility with other software I choose to use. I will no longer buy into a closed system. > > But I thought that a custom colorimeter is the only way to go if you want the best results (apart from an exotic spectroradiometer or something like Basiccolor Discus). You can buy cheaper general purpose colorimeters, but they won't give the same results as one designed for a particular type of monitor. Bob, The availability of improved and more accurate color measurement devices is obviously a welcome advance. The issue is not the availability of new custom colorimeters, but rather, the intentionally restricted compatibility of those devices and their bundled software. The HP / X-Rite DreamColor APS colorimeter (an OEM device) is a perfect example of this issue. The custom colorimeter is appropriately matched to the very well designed DreamColor display, but *only* the bundled DreamColor software can communicate with the colorimeter or the display. In addition, the bundled software will not allow the use of the EyeOne Pro spectro or any other appropriate measurement device. Therefore, the only way to calibrate the monitor is with the proprietary colorimeter and bundled software. The features of the bundled calibration / profiling software are minimal compared with competitive products. In addition, the software does not have a simple pass/fail verification routine, nor does it show "target / achieved" results for luminance, gamma and white point, let alone a verification routine where one can change the input dataset (grayscale, evenly distributed colors within the display gamut, SWOP, etc.) and look at the delta E's of measured/reference values. In our experience, comparison of the luminance and white point achieved after calibration and profiling were significantly different from the target values when checked with an EyeOne Pro spectro driven by BasICColor Display 4 or PatchTool. Support (from HP) for this software is essentially nonexistent, and if for whatever reason the software hangs or crashes consistently and won't run, you simply cannot calibrate the monitor. Had I known the imposed limitations of the calibration and profiling hardware and software, I would not have purchased the monitor and would have remained with Eizo or NEC. In hindsight, it was a very disappointing and frustrating experience that was the direct result of a policy / contract decision by HP and X-Rite, rather than a primary failure of the technology. Should consumers enthusiastically purchase a new measurement device if it will only operate optimally (or at all) with bundled, proprietary software? Probably not. The recent announcements from the X-Rite folks on this list (Tom Lianza and Steve Rankin) that X-Rite intends to allow developer access to the **retail** version of the I1 Display Pro III is welcome news, as was the comment from Karl Koch that the DISCUS will allow third-party software development. Both are big wins for consumers who care about accurate color. As for OEM versions of the I1 Display Pro III, buyer beware, or you may end up in the situation that those of us with DreamColor displays found ourselves in. We'll see what happens. --Rich Wagner

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