May 2014 - colorsync-users - lists.apple.com

Re: Prints are over saturated - excessive print contrast - since upgrades?
by Russ Widstrand 02 Jun '14

02 Jun '14

Work done since last email... Reinstalled LR 5.2 Reinstalled (copied) Moab icc profile from the internet Restarted Epson "Enema", as you described, downloaded new software from Epson site. Problem remains. No change, still contrasty print from LR5.2-Mavericks combo. NEWS UPDATE However, on a hunch and a simple move, I booted to new user "Test", with icc profile moved over and selected... ie print settings the same. PROBLEM SOLVED!! ALL THREE PRINTS NOW MATCH. LR5.2-MountainLion LR5.2-Mavericks PSD-Mavericks All match each other. Not sure what to do now, ie how to migrate user without moving the "trouble" back? Hmmmm. Any thoughts? On May 30, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Andrew Rodney <andrew(a)digitaldog.net> wrote: > On May 30, 2014, at 2:48 PM, Russ Widstrand <russ(a)widstrand.com> wrote: > >> BUT, LR/Mavericks (current workflow) is printing way contrasty and saturated and does not match either of the above, as previously stated. Issue still remains. What now? >> > > It's the profile or the device has changed (inks, paper), etc. The two match, that's key. Try another reference image but I suspect something changed at the print level. > > Andrew

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Re: Prints are over saturated - excessive print contrast - since upgrades?
by MARK SEGAL 31 May '14

31 May '14

Yes, as an individual talking to support that's the first line of defense - so nothing new there. My question was about whether heavy hitters such as Adobe and Epson have been after them to investigate and fix as appropriate? Mark ________________________________ From: David Miller <david(a)spinnakerphotoimagingcenter.com> To: MARK SEGAL <mgsegal(a)rogers.com> Cc: Chris Cox <ccox(a)adobe.com>; "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com>; "colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 9:48:39 PM Subject: Re: Prints are over saturated - excessive print contrast - since upgrades? talking with apple support, i am the ONLY one complaint. Soooo? Vats knew? David B Miller, Pharm. D. member Millers' Photography L.L.C. dba Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center Bellingham, WA www.spinnakerphotoimagingcenter.com 360 739 2826 David B Miller, Pharm. D. member Millers' Photography L.L.C. dba Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center Bellingham, WA www.spinnakerphotoimagingcenter.com 360 739 2826 On May 30, 2014, at 5:39 PM, MARK SEGAL <mgsegal(a)rogers.com> wrote: >I've been using 10.9x with my Epson 4900, printing from both Lightroom and PrinTao and have not experienced such problems, nor did I need to generate new profiles for Lightroom - the same ones I'm using on Snow Leopard work fine. However, with respect to the reports of less fortuate outcomes - is Apple aware and are they working on it? > > >Mark > > >________________________________ >From: Chris Cox <ccox(a)adobe.com> >To: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com>; "colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> >Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 3:46:40 PM >Subject: Re: Prints are over saturated - excessive print contrast - sinceupgrades? > > >We've been getting a lot of reports of print color problems with MacOS 10.9, >especially with Epson printers. Of course, we're also seeing crashes in >printer drivers, all new to MacOS 10.9. > >Chris > > >On 5/30/14 12:00 PM, "colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com" ><colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > > >>Message: 3 >Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 18:38:18 -0700 >From: Russ Widstrand > ><russ(a)widstrand.com> >>To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >Cc: "Larry N. Olson" > ><larrynolson(a)gmail.com> >>Subject: Prints are over saturated - excessive print > >contrast - since >>upgrades? >Message-ID: > ><2EB0FEE3-746B-4DE1-9D0A-96320D804C1A(a)widstrand.com> >>Content-Type: > >text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> > >_______________________________________________ >Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) >Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/mgsegal%40rogers.com > >This email sent to mgsegal(a)rogers.com >_______________________________________________ >Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) >Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagi… > >This email sent to spinnakerphotoimagingcenter(a)dnmillerphoto.com

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Re: Prints are over saturated - excessive print contrast - since upgrades?
by Chris Cox 31 May '14

31 May '14

We've been getting a lot of reports of print color problems with MacOS 10.9, especially with Epson printers. Of course, we're also seeing crashes in printer drivers, all new to MacOS 10.9. Chris On 5/30/14 12:00 PM, "colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > Message: 3 Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 18:38:18 -0700 From: Russ Widstrand > <russ(a)widstrand.com> To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Cc: "Larry N. Olson" > <larrynolson(a)gmail.com> Subject: Prints are over saturated - excessive print > contrast - since upgrades? Message-ID: > <2EB0FEE3-746B-4DE1-9D0A-96320D804C1A(a)widstrand.com> Content-Type: > text/plain; charset=windows-1252

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Highlight TVI Not Accurate in Profile
by William Whitfield 31 May '14

31 May '14

Greetings, FYI - I recently posted this to Print Planet. I am a flexo printer and have created a profile using iProfiler for a poly stock which has a very high TVI. In order to make an accurate proof I had to build what I would call, an extreme gradation in my CGS proofing workflow, which led me to believe the profile is not accurately reporting my highlight TVI. I checked the TVI on press sheet with a 530; in ColorAnt using the measurement file; and, in ColorThink using the profile. ColorAnt matches the TVI in highlights that the press printed, but the profile in ColorThink does not. Here is the data for cyan: 1.96%: ColorAnt 26% Press 24% ColorThink 7% @1%, 13% @2% 2.75%: ColorAnt 30% Press 29% ColorThink 14% @2%, 20% @3% 4.71%: ColorAnt 36% Press 35% ColorThink 27% @4%, 32% @5% I have had some feedback as to why this is happening, but would appreciate some more. Additionally, is editing the profile in something like Profile Editor, which I still own, the only way to fix this. In my limited experience using iProfiler I do not see a way to make edits such as these to a profile. Thanks. -Bill-

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Re: Highlight TVI Not Accurate in Profile
by William Whitfield 30 May '14

30 May '14

Greetings, To simply my previous post. 1 - I make a profile of an IT8 target that shows a high TVI in the 1.96% area, which is available in all colors in an IT8 target. To reiterate, via 530 readings of press piece and ColorAnt reading the measurement file. 2 - I have a press piece that I can see has the same high TVI in the 1.96% areas. 3 - I use the profile made from the printed IT8 target in my proofing workflow (CGS) and the result does not match what the press piece shows as the high TVI in the 1% area. To make the match work, which I have done successfully, I had to create a graduation curve that greatly increases the highlight values. 4 - Why? Being naive, or relatively so, I thought the profile would show the same TVI as I measure on press piece. -Bill-

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Re: Prints are over saturated - excessive print contrast - since upgrades?
by Andrew Rodney 30 May '14

30 May '14

On May 30, 2014, at 2:18 PM, Russ Widstrand <russ(a)widstrand.com> wrote: > Setting captures... Right off the bat, you don't have Black Point Compensation set in Photoshop, it's always on in LR. Also, the settings you need to examine in LR is the template which sticks to settings and as such, you can't use any of the preset's in the Epson driver. It must be set to "Default Settings" not a preset. IOW, the Preset: "3800 entrada bright 1440" needs to be set to "Default Settings" in LR. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/

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Re: Prints are over saturated - excessive print contrast - since upgrades?
by Andrew Rodney 30 May '14

30 May '14

On May 30, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Russ Widstrand <russ(a)widstrand.com> wrote: > THERE IS A MARKED DIFFERENCE IN PRINTS BETWEEN THE TWO APPLICATIONS. They should produce identical results (and do on this end). I'm using 10.9.3 too, Photoshop CC and LR 5 but the two have printed the same since day one unless there's something else going on. Be useful to see screen captures of each setup. Are you using V4 profiles anywhere? LR Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/

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Prints are over saturated - excessive print contrast - since upgrades?
by Russ Widstrand 30 May '14

30 May '14

Friend Dennis Dunbar introduced me to this ColorSync user group. Moab included in this email as well. Problem Overview: Files printed in Lightroom 6 months ago, do not print the same from LR today. Even though print settings are the same, same paper, same .icc profile, same printer, same monitor and same monitor calibrator. Prints are contrasty, especially deep blacks (blocked up) and prints are over saturated. The monitor looks flatter than the print (opposite of normal). Print settings have been triple checked. We have been printing in this workflow for years, we are typically adding more contrast and a bit more saturation to our RAW files. That has all reversed in the last batch of printing, since upgrading to Mavericks and LR5. Possible culprits: -An old monitor? SypderPro calibrator does not alert to any issues, monitor is still able to reach target brightness. And as the file and .xmp settings have not changed, but the resulting print has, it seems to rule out the monitor -Mavericks upgrade? A "black clipping" "bug" has been reported with Mavericks, though this seems to be related to monitors, perhaps not prints. Could ColorSync upgrade in Mavericks have broken things? relating to LR 5? or .icc paper profile? Again, all print settings have not changed, icc profile is set correctly. -LR 5 upgrade? Hard to distinguish LR from Mavericks, as the move from LR 4 to LR5 took place around the same time as Mavericks, hard to pick out which could be the culprit if either. How to troubleshoot? My client and I, both veteran color printers and photographers, are stumped by this over saturated and contrasty printing, completely antithetical to normal expectations (monitor vs print). How can I troubleshoot these "internal" and virtual digital processes, of which I have little to no control over, and no way to bypass, ie colorsync, printer drivers, osX and Lightroom, etc? If there is no "fix" how should we address historical files vs. new files, super confusing and frustrating, surely this cant be right? ANY HELP ON WHERE TO START TROUBLE SHOOTING WOULD BE APPRECIATED. Thanks Russ Russ Widstrand Photographer 503 459 7020 Website • VCF Contact Card • Twitter • LinkedIn • Facebook Equipment: Apple 23" LCD monitor (pretty old, 10yrs) SypderPro 3 monitor calibrator & software (up to date) Mac OS 10.9.3 Mavericks (up to date) Lightroom 5.2 (up to date, though not to 5.4) Epson 3800 printer Moab Entrada Bright Paper & ICC (up to date) LR Print settings Epson Driver Off Enhanced Matte Paper 1440 dpi Moab Entrada Bright.icc Relative Intent 16bit No print sharpening No printer adjustments

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Highlight TVI Not Accurate in Profile
by William Whitfield 29 May '14

29 May '14

Greetings, FYI - I recently posted this to Print Planet. I am a flexo printer and have created a profile using iProfiler for a poly stock which has a very high TVI. In order to make an accurate proof I had to build what I would call, an extreme gradation in my CGS proofing workflow, which led me to believe the profile is not accurately reporting my highlight TVI. I checked the TVI on press sheet with a 530; in ColorAnt using the measurement file; and, in ColorThink using the profile. ColorAnt matches the TVI in highlights that the press printed, but the profile in ColorThink does not. Here is the data for cyan: 1.96%: ColorAnt 26% Press 24% ColorThink 7% @1%, 13% @2% 2.75%: ColorAnt 30% Press 29% ColorThink 14% @2%, 20% @3% 4.71%: ColorAnt 36% Press 35% ColorThink 27% @4%, 32% @5% I have had some feedback as to why this is happening, but would appreciate some more. Additionally, is editing the profile in something like Profile Editor, which I still own, the only way to fix this. In my limited experience using iProfiler I do not see a way to make edits such as these to a profile. Thanks. -Bill-

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Re: Highlight TVI Not Accurate in Profile
by Mike Strickler 29 May '14

29 May '14

Hi Bill, Granted I'm not at my most alert today and may have missed something, but did you say whether all measurements were made from the same control patches, or to put it another way, does your profiling chart actually contain the patches you're discussing? If it doesn't, and smaller charts do not, then the figures taken from the press profile and therefore accessed by for your proofer are interpolated and inaccurate. Same with TVI, of course: You see a certain gain, for example, on a 3% dot in your control bar and lower gain in the profile. The profile may also show density below the actual minimum dot, which is why proofing RIPs have a setting to override the source profile and let that 1-2% drop out. But maybe I've misconstrued your question. It's happened before. Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 08:42:10 -0700 > From: William Whitfield <billw(a)mlode.com> > To: ColorSync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> > Subject: Highlight TVI Not Accurate in Profile > Message-ID: <837A3416-338E-40A8-9C6D-912D6E964820(a)mlode.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Greetings, > > FYI - I recently posted this to Print Planet. I am a flexo printer and have created a profile using iProfiler for a poly stock which has a very high TVI. In order to make an accurate proof I had to build what I would call, an extreme gradation in my CGS proofing workflow, which led me to believe the profile is not accurately reporting my highlight TVI. > > I checked the TVI on press sheet with a 530; in ColorAnt using the measurement file; and, in ColorThink using the profile. ColorAnt matches the TVI in highlights that the press printed, but the profile in ColorThink does not. Here is the data for cyan: > > 1.96%: > ColorAnt 26% > Press 24% > ColorThink 7% @1%, 13% @2% > > 2.75%: > ColorAnt 30% > Press 29% > ColorThink 14% @2%, 20% @3% > > 4.71%: > ColorAnt 36% > Press 35% > ColorThink 27% @4%, 32% @5% > > I have had some feedback as to why this is happening, but would appreciate some more. Additionally, is editing the profile in something like Profile Editor, which I still own, the only way to fix this. In my limited experience using iProfiler I do not see a way to make edits such as these to a profile. > > Thanks. > > -Bill- > >

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