September 2017 - colorsync-users

AW: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 36
by Juergen Seitz 05 Jan '18

05 Jan '18

Hi Martin, The "issue" with F52 is the papertint. With F52 it is the first time that we are handling a reference characterization data set which is as far as -10b* from neutral. In fact, this papertint reflects quite well what we get from the many uncoated production substrates and prints, so this standard, describing a specific offset printing condition is really good... but: The issue is to be found in the typical handling of a white point in the ICC color workflow. The complete greybalance tips over to this very bluish paper tint and then the CMY-balance gets "out of order" to compensate accordingly. Maybe one of the ICC profiling solutions delivers some bette interpretation with the perceptual intent? With our attempt to keep a most consistent color appearance possible, we have developed our own gamut mapping. please find a little Lab-tif file showing a FOGRA39 to FOGRA52 conversion here: https://owncloud.gmgcolor.com/owncloud/index.php/s/OdMOCwwMz1PcQv8 If you open this in Photoshop, you can compare the image on the different Layers and you will see what a typical ICC conversion is doing, when you convert from F39 to F52, or what a GMG- DL-profile is doing. Our profiles can be used either in our ColorServer application or within our Photoshop-Plugin. Kind regards Juergen -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Colorsync-users [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+juergen.seitz=gmgcolor.com@lists.apple.com] Im Auftrag von colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com Gesendet: Samstag, 9. September 2017 16:53 An: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Betreff: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 36 Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton) 2. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton) 3. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton) 4. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen) 5. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Graeme Gill) 6. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen) 7. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Graeme Gill) 8. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen) 9. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Dan Bergstrom) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 15:31:40 -0400 From: "Roger Breton" <graxx(a)videotron.ca> To: "'Martin Orpen'" <martin(a)idea-digital.com>, "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <7858301d328d9$19748fc0$4c5daf40$(a)videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" How's the Perceptual Intent? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Colorsync-users [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Martin Orpen Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 1:04 PM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] > On 4 Sep 2017, at 19:27, Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> wrote: > > I’ve downloaded it and it works very well (and with the yellow as I’d expect from the 52 data). Having taken a closer look, BasICColor Print is also producing poor relative intent separations from the 52 data. The neutral rendering is just as questionable as i1Profiler’s — the only difference being that X-Rite’s engine maintains the hideous blue blacks and BasICColor neutralises it. The magenta plummets by 30% between L31 & L28, while yellow climbs by 20% and cyan drops 6%. I’ve never seen results this bad from any other data set. It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:11:36 -0400 From: "Roger Breton" <graxx(a)videotron.ca> To: "'Martin Orpen'" <martin(a)idea-digital.com>, "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <78c9a01d328de$ae8419a0$0b8c4ce0$(a)videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Martin wrote : > It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI. Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile? I suppose you long tried that option. / Roger ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:28:38 -0400 From: "Roger Breton" <graxx(a)videotron.ca> To: "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <78f8f01d328e1$0e8869d0$2b993d70$(a)videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Oops! Misread what Martin wrote.... What about using the same "tools" used by the ECI to generate their generic ICC profile? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Colorsync-users [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Roger Breton Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 4:12 PM To: 'Martin Orpen' <martin(a)idea-digital.com>; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Martin wrote : > It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI. Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile? I suppose you long tried that option. / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:39:15 +0100 From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <AAC48E54-AFB1-4331-9A16-DB91731F7C9A(a)idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 8 Sep 2017, at 20:31, Roger Breton <graxx(a)videotron.ca> wrote: > > How's the Perceptual Intent? Smooth, but the blacks still don’t match. And, as the aim here is to generate profiles for black & white or critical neutral reproduction in CMYK, we don’t really need any proprietary perceptual voodoo. We need blacks that match. >> It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI. > > Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile? > I suppose you long tried that option. Yep, and that’s where the problem is. PSO Uncoated and whatever number of variants you want to produce yourself from the 47 data yield images that match *fairly* well. PSO Uncoated v3 and your custom ICC profiles made from the 52 data yield images that don’t match. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 09:08:04 +0200 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2(a)argyllcms.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <4520dfb5-763a-f387-3d2a-e7f3fd6ad6ff(a)argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Martin Orpen wrote: > The Fogra 52 data produces neutrals composed of CMK and zero Y in both > i1Profiler and Argyll. I'm not seeing that (at least with my current code): colprof -v -qm -kx fogra52 icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc 100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000 [CMYK](clip) 50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.082952 0.039821 0.172167 0.656606 [CMYK] 40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.195334 0.103255 0.268755 0.778196 [CMYK] 30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.704504 0.399554 0.299435 0.917631 [CMYK] 20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716 [CMYK] 10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK] 0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000 [CMYK] colprof -v -qm -kz fogra52 icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc 100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000 [CMYK](clip) 50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.606688 0.510562 0.654812 0.000731 [CMYK] 40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.695956 0.650859 0.853761 0.179810 [CMYK] 30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.791740 0.543053 0.444419 0.844733 [CMYK] 20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716 [CMYK] 10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK] 0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000 [CMYK] what exactly are you looking for ? Cheers, Graeme Gill. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 12:15:53 +0100 From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <65DD99CB-90C3-4AC6-9CEB-26D8C7AC0CDB(a)idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 9 Sep 2017, at 08:08, Graeme Gill <graeme2(a)argyllcms.com> wrote: > > colprof -v -qm -kz fogra52 > > icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc > 100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000 > [CMYK](clip) > 50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.606688 0.510562 0.654812 0.000731 > [CMYK] > 40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.695956 0.650859 0.853761 0.179810 > [CMYK] > 30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.791740 0.543053 0.444419 0.844733 > [CMYK] > 20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716 > [CMYK] > 10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK] > 0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000 > [CMYK] > > what exactly are you looking for ? Yellow in separations with increased K generation :) In profiles I made using Argyll in March this year I was getting this from -kx 300 TAC 60.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.042220 0.021155 0.138908 0.493434 [CMYK] 50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.082952 0.039821 0.172168 0.656604 [CMYK] 30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.703806 0.399562 0.299396 0.917587 [CMYK] 20.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.910211 0.696531 0.426875 0.996719 [CMYK] 10.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.932469 0.806219 0.293490 0.998988 [CMYK] 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.864791 0.135001 1.000000 [CMYK] But, more importantly, this is what you actually get from relative conversions: 50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.103877 0.046326 0.000000 0.712330 [CMYK] 30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.531888 0.077466 0.945821 [CMYK] 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.864791 0.135001 1.000000 [CMYK] And perceptual has NO yellow whatsoever! 50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.078745 0.037454 0.000000 0.635533 [CMYK] 30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.265519 0.116809 0.000000 0.776893 [CMYK] 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.549650 0.000000 0.922678 [CMYK] -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 15:57:15 +0200 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2(a)argyllcms.com> To: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com >> ColorSync" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <0e66500b-08e9-be72-74bd-83befd7fd7e7(a)argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Martin Orpen wrote: > Yellow in separations with increased K generation :) Why ? The nature of the device response is that you can either have lots of yellow or you can have the result being neutral. Take your pick. i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color. [ Perceptual response also depends to a degree on the source profile used. ] Cheers, Graeme Gill. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 15:35:29 +0100 From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <641CB64A-7671-4D76-BA09-616A7A8BADDB(a)idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 9 Sep 2017, at 14:57, Graeme Gill <graeme2(a)argyllcms.com> wrote: > > Martin Orpen wrote: > >> Yellow in separations with increased K generation :) > > Why ? > > The nature of the device response is that you can either have lots of > yellow or you can have the result being neutral. > > Take your pick. > > i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color. In print, the result doesn’t look neutral, or natural. If you make a high GCR custom profile from FOGRA52 and proof or print the results to compare them to images separate using PSO Uncoated v2 they do not match and will not get approved by a client. They are too blue. High GCR profiles using the FOGRA47 data work better than those made from 52. If the device demanded blue blacks, why doesn’t the ECI profile generate them? -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 14:52:18 +0000 From: Dan Bergstrom <DanBergstrom(a)primarycolor.com> To: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <205D2B3C-C8A4-4E06-A8B7-615478A11E59(a)primarycolor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Yeah and low TAC will look thin (weak). Also you want each channel to have good shape. -- Dan Bergstrom | Color Technology and Quality | PRIMARY COLOR ORANGE COUNTY http://www.primarycolor.com | T 949 660 7080 C 949 616 4986 > On Sep 9, 2017, at 7:35 AM, Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> wrote: > > >> On 9 Sep 2017, at 14:57, Graeme Gill <graeme2(a)argyllcms.com> wrote: >> >> Martin Orpen wrote: >> >>> Yellow in separations with increased K generation :) >> >> Why ? >> >> The nature of the device response is that you can either >> have lots of yellow or you can have the result being neutral. >> >> Take your pick. >> >> i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color. > > > > In print, the result doesn’t look neutral, or natural. > > If you make a high GCR custom profile from FOGRA52 and proof or print the results to compare them to images separate using PSO Uncoated v2 they do not match and will not get approved by a client. > > They are too blue. > > High GCR profiles using the FOGRA47 data work better than those made from 52. > > If the device demanded blue blacks, why doesn’t the ECI profile generate them? > > -- > Martin Orpen > Idea Digital Imaging Ltd > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/danbergstrom%40prim… > > This email sent to danbergstrom(a)primarycolor.com ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Colorsync-users mailing list Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users ------------------------------ End of Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 36 ***********************************************

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TC1617 printed chart
by Miller, Steve 29 Sep '17

29 Sep '17

I have some TC1617x_H (i1iSis) charts I need to measure. I don't own an i1iSis. I do have a DTP70. Does anyone know how I can import the reference file into Colorport so that the patches can be measured? I've imported the reference file already into Colorport but the patches are not in the same order as the printed chart. I also own PatchTool… I really don't want to spot measure all 1,617 patches. [Description: Description: Description: cid:F52454D3-70DB-47D5-9BD1-66B230BBC63A] STEVE MILLER Color Management Specialist BIC Graphic North America / 1000 3rd Ave. SW, Sleepy Eye, MN 56085 Tel: (1) 507 794 8203 Email: steve.miller(a)bicgraphic.com<mailto:steve.miller@bicgraphic.com> www.bicgraphic.com / www.norwood.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This electronic message is confidential and may contain legally privileged information intended only for the use of the individual or company named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communications is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error please immediately notify us by telephone and return the original message to us at the address above. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com ______________________________________________________________________

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RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
by Roger Breton 13 Sep '17

13 Sep '17

Martin, > In print, the result doesn’t look neutral, or natural. Do you mean print as "printed on the press" or "printed on an inkjet printer"? / Roger

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Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Andreas Kraushaar)
by Paul Sherfield 11 Sep '17

11 Sep '17

Hi Been following this thread with interest. So a few observations: 1) On making a profile from the Fogra 52 dataset, using ColorLogics ColorAnt and CoPra4 software, reducing the TAC to 260% and applling heavy GCR I get what seems to be a usable profile when tested using the stadard test images, Grainer Rainbow, etc. 2) However it is noticable when separating RGB B/W images that the CMY separations are not neutral, there are blue /black as reported by Martin. If these are printed correctly would this be an issue? Hope not! The yellow separation, as reported by Martin is a little odd. 3) Soft proofing on screen seems to be a issue with M1 based profile with higher OBA¹s. I guess as the screen cannot show the OBA as the human eye would see then, is shows the paper white, say -b10, as very blue. Not sure this can be easier corrected? 4) Is Is there spectral data for Fogra52 as there is for 51? Regards Paul Sherfield Please note my mobile is now my main contact number: Mobile: + 44 7899 906385 http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk http://twitter.com/#!/missinghorse Member - UK TC130 Technical Advisory Group (ISO 12647 Printing Standards) UK Expert: ISO TC130/Working Group 13 on certification of printing standards Chair BPIF Colour Quality Scheme Certification Steering Group This email and any attachments may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of addressee. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, any disclosure, copying or other distribution is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete all copies from your system. Email may be susceptible to data corruption, interception and unauthorised amendment. We do not accept liability for any such corruption, interception or amendment or the consequences thereof. We do not accept liability for any action or inaction by the recipient as a result of advice or information contained within this email. -

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Metallic inks quality control.
by Axel Robert 11 Sep '17

11 Sep '17

Dear all, I am wondering how to deal with the metallic inks quality control. As far as I know, it seems impossible to use a conventional spectrophotometer due to their own specific reflectance. So, I’m guessing we need a tool able to measure in multiple viewing angles. But is it feasible in the same manner like automotive exteriors? And if so, what are the tolerances we need to achieve if any existed? Thank you for your clever explanations. Regards. Axel Robert | Prepress Manager UBISOFT |EMEA Manufacturing

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Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 14
by Malcolm Mackenzie 10 Sep '17

10 Sep '17

Hi Martin I did a few tests in i1P and confirm your findings. The "Intelligent Black" feature does odd thing when it thinks TAC should be low and the Max K separation/width is contributing to the low yellow. I've had issues with the settings for digital as have others online. I remade the profile with the same data and it was fine, so it's an i1P thing. I've never got an answer or seen one from X-Rite on the issue. Malcolm +44 (0)20 3239 3330 +44 (0)7910 413421 mm(a)colour-engine.com skype; print_and_proof LinkedIn <http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/malcolm-mackenzie/7/326/778/> Twitter <https://twitter.com/ColourEngineLtd> www.colour-engine.com TeamViewer Quick Support <https://get.teamviewer.com/xjv8qcf> On 6 March 2017 at 20:00, <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler (Martin Orpen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 13:44:12 +0000 > From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> > To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" > <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> > Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler > Message-ID: <3C5CA2A6-7570-4A90-925E-6C78A7403549(a)idea-digital.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > On 1 Mar 2017, at 00:21, Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> wrote: > > > > I’ve made some MaxK and Full Black profiles using both the supplied > FOGRA52.mxf and by importing the raw ECI data and they produce a Y channel > that has next to nothing in it if you use the profiles in Photoshop. > > > I guess that FOGRA52 isn’t that popular then? > > The PSO Uncoated v3 (FOGRA52) profile documentation says: > > > The profile was created using the Heidelberg Color > Tool 17 with the following settings: > black length 9 (starting point 10%) > black width 10 > total dot area 300% > maximum black 96% > > > I can’t get yellow values anywhere near those generated by this profile > using i1Profiler or ArgyllCMS. > > And nothing even remotely close to the neutral curves of the Heidelberg > perceptual rendering. > > So I gave up and separated to a custom built FOGRA47L instead and then > proofed the job to FOGRA52. > > I find it odd that the dark patch on the ECI/BVDM Gray Control Strip for > FOGRA52 is C62 M55 Y60 — an ink combination that the ICC profile is > incapable of producing... > > -- > Martin Orpen > Idea Digital Imaging Ltd >

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RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
by Roger Breton 08 Sep '17

08 Sep '17

How's the Perceptual Intent? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Colorsync-users [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Martin Orpen Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 1:04 PM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] > On 4 Sep 2017, at 19:27, Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> wrote: > > I’ve downloaded it and it works very well (and with the yellow as I’d expect from the 52 data). Having taken a closer look, BasICColor Print is also producing poor relative intent separations from the 52 data. The neutral rendering is just as questionable as i1Profiler’s — the only difference being that X-Rite’s engine maintains the hideous blue blacks and BasICColor neutralises it. The magenta plummets by 30% between L31 & L28, while yellow climbs by 20% and cyan drops 6%. I’ve never seen results this bad from any other data set. It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca

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RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
by Roger Breton 08 Sep '17

08 Sep '17

Oops! Misread what Martin wrote.... What about using the same "tools" used by the ECI to generate their generic ICC profile? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Colorsync-users [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Roger Breton Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 4:12 PM To: 'Martin Orpen' <martin(a)idea-digital.com>; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Martin wrote : > It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI. Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile? I suppose you long tried that option. / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca

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RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
by Roger Breton 08 Sep '17

08 Sep '17

Martin wrote : > It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI. Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile? I suppose you long tried that option. / Roger

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Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
by Martin Orpen 08 Sep '17

08 Sep '17

> On 4 Sep 2017, at 10:12, Karl Koch <kk(a)basiccolor.de> wrote: > > You can try basICColor print 5 (download from www.basiccolor.de and free 14 days try-out period). I made a maxGCR profile with max black width, 100% K and 270% TAC (which I would never use in real life), which still holds 45% Y. Karl I’ve downloaded it and it works very well (and with the yellow as I’d expect from the 52 data). Maybe it is time to move on from i1Profiler… and do it before £1 = €0.5 :( Regards -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd

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