August 2018 - colorsync-users

Re: PSO Coated v3 separations
by Martin Orpen 04 Sep '18

04 Sep '18

> On 24 Aug 2018, at 07:28, Andreas Kraushaar <Kraushaar(a)fogra.org> wrote: > > if you are close to Munich I invite you to see that what you (can) see on screen is what you get on print. Softproofing is working (both for F39 and F51). You don’t need to travel further than your screen. Open the BVDM Roman16 image with the blue background. We don’t want more magenta than yellow in her skin — you don’t get that in 39 — but that’s what you get with 51… and then expect it to print well on a blue paper! Convert the same image to 51 in ColorServer and then try explaining the difference to a bewildered client. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd

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reminder about subscribing and unsubscribing
by John Gnaegy 30 Aug '18

30 Aug '18

When you first subscribed to the list, the server sent a message to the email address you signed up with, to ensure that it was indeed you that requested membership. More accurately, to ensure that the person receiving email at that address had indeed requested to add that address to the mailing list. In the same way, if you unsubscribe from the list, a message will be sent to that address to ensure that you (the person recieving mail at the to-be-unsubscribed address) actually requested that address to be unsubscribed. This is so that if someone spoofs an unsubscribe request that looks like it came from your address, the server still sends a message to that address (you) requesting verification before unsubscribing you. It prevents random strangers from being able to unsubscribe you. So if you ever get a message from the list server asking for verification that you requested to unsubscribe from the list, but you never requested to unsubscribe, just ignore that verification message. No one other than you will ever request that you be unsubscribed.

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RE: PSO Coated v3 separations
by graxx＠videotron.ca 29 Aug '18

29 Aug '18

Martin, Would using a different profiler help with the soft proofing issue, by any chance? Have you had the chance to try this on the BVDM images? At least, that would give you the beginning of a solution, regardless of your main policy... What about an Argyll profile? Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Claas Bickeböller Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 2:12 AM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: PSO Coated v3 separations Martin, if I remember the discussion about FOGRA52 the conclusion was: There are gamut mapping algorithms out there which give decent results using the new characterization data. It’s just that they are not inside the profilers you have currently access to. Correct? So why don’t you simply buy a decent profiler, create a profile with a mapping that you prefer and give these profiles to your clients? My 2 cents Claas

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PSO Coated v3 separations
by Martin Orpen 28 Aug '18

28 Aug '18

Is it just me that thinks that FOGRA51 produces inferior separations and unacceptable skin colour? Just like FOGRA52 we get separations that lack yellow when we need MORE yellow to create an acceptable skin colour. Who makes the decisions about colour reproduction for these standards? Have they proofed and printed the BVDM Roman 16 images with the Green and Blue backgrounds? Did they honestly believe that skin the colour of boiled ham was acceptable? This causes a lot of problems in pre-press workflows because clients supplying Photoshop CMYK end up with terrible looking images and any that we edit using commercial separation software (that corrects the yellow deficiency) look nothing like the images in the rest of the job. This wasn’t the case with FOGRA39. The new standards are producing substandard results :( -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd

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Wasatch in Bootcamp
by Scott Martin 27 Aug '18

27 Aug '18

I’m running MacOS 10.13.6 with an SSD formatted APFS and I’m having a hard time running Wasatch RIP in BootCamp. Specifically, it won’t import any files. ONYX and other RIPs are great. Can anyone report their experience with this on a similar configuration? Scott Martin www.on-sight.com Precise color science for printmaking professionals

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Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 15, Issue 63
by Fons Put 27 Aug '18

27 Aug '18

I did some testing for a commercial printer to produce nice looking separations on rotation offset papers. Typically the designs are separated for CMYK-sheetfed. Especially for the lower grade papers (ECO), applying ICC transforms didn’t bring pleasing results: too flat and lack of color contrast. Using a set of specific compensation curves to transform the sheetfed designs seems a good alternative. Gray balance is becoming more attractive and color contrast is good (Customer was happy with the solution, easy to implement and fast workflow processing). Best regards, Fons Put Senior Innovatieadviseur T +32 (0)14 40 39 93 M +32 (0)495 23 21 34 fons.put(a)vigc.be<mailto:fons.put@vigc.be> VIGC Kenniscentrum Grafische Innovatie www.vigc.be VIGC - van kennis naar kunnen On 25 Aug 2018, at 21:00, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com> wrote: Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of colorsync-users digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: PSO Coated v3 separations (Andreas Kraushaar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 12:58:37 +0200 From: Andreas Kraushaar <andreas.kraushaar(a)gmx.de> To: Mike Strickler <info(a)mspgraphics.com> Cc: Colorsync Users List <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: PSO Coated v3 separations Message-ID: <23B61456-08D5-4D31-BD93-9869F0FC1629(a)gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 thanks :-) FOGRA52 indeed is quite a special printing condition and the higher the differences between printing conditions (both in gamut shape and size) the bigger the challenges. I understand that people expect and easy exchange between any printing conditions but there are some restrictions ... regards Andy Wir stellen den Hintergrund in den Vordergrund. We put the background in the foreground. ————————————————————————— Dr.-Ing. Andreas Kraushaar Abt. Vorstufentechnik Fogra Forschungsinstitut für Medientechnologien e.V. Einsteinring 1a 85609 Aschheim b. München Telefon: +49 89. 431 82 - 335 Telefax: +49 89. 431 82 - 100 E-mail: kraushaar(a)fogra.org Internet: www.fogra.org ----------------------------------------------------------------- Geschäftsführer: Dr. Eduard Neufeld | Sitz des Vereins: Aschheim b. München | Vereinsregister 4909 Am 22.08.2018 um 23:11 schrieb Mike Strickler <info(a)mspgraphics.com>: Andy: I also know of at least one profiling applicaion that includes a “flavor” of perceptual rendering for device links that does a very deft job of scaling values close to the white point. I was referring to perceptual tables built into most ouput profiles. These might not always produce a convincing result. In any event, what is clear is that Fogra is not to blame for the paper color, and thus for the characterization. Mike Subject: Re: PSO Coated v3 separations From: Andreas Kraushaar <email@hidden <mailto:email@hidden>> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:00:41 +0200 Authentication-results: apple.com <http://apple.com/>; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=email@hidden <mailto:email@hidden>; dmarc=none Delivered-to: email@hidden <mailto:email@hidden> Delivered-to: email@hidden <mailto:email@hidden> Hi Martin, all, this is a „problem“ or a „feature" with ICC based white point scaling (required for colorimetrical encoding of data). Rendering neutrals from ab=0,0 to ab=2,5 -10 is quite a change and XYZ-scaling from black to white does not reflect the required XYZ to be printed to actually get a decent print. The solution would be to use a perceptual rendering intent that does a grey mapping close to ab=0,0 and not to what XYZ scaling predicts. I know many color server device link profiles (F39 - F52 and also ECI-RGB to F52) that does this job. regards Andy Kraushaar PS: So please believe me that the people that doing this huge (unpaid) efforts also do check the separation, yes! Wir stellen den Hintergrund in den Vordergrund. We put the background in the foreground. ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ colorsync-users mailing list colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users ------------------------------ End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 15, Issue 63 ***********************************************

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PSO Coated v3 separations
by Mike Strickler 25 Aug '18

25 Aug '18

Andy: I also know of at least one profiling applicaion that includes a “flavor” of perceptual rendering for device links that does a very deft job of scaling values close to the white point. I was referring to perceptual tables built into most ouput profiles. These might not always produce a convincing result. In any event, what is clear is that Fogra is not to blame for the paper color, and thus for the characterization. Mike Subject: Re: PSO Coated v3 separations From: Andreas Kraushaar <email@hidden <mailto:email@hidden>> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:00:41 +0200 Authentication-results: apple.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=email@hidden <mailto:email@hidden>; dmarc=none Delivered-to: email@hidden <mailto:email@hidden> Delivered-to: email@hidden <mailto:email@hidden> Hi Martin, all, this is a „problem“ or a „feature" with ICC based white point scaling (required for colorimetrical encoding of data). Rendering neutrals from ab=0,0 to ab=2,5 -10 is quite a change and XYZ-scaling from black to white does not reflect the required XYZ to be printed to actually get a decent print. The solution would be to use a perceptual rendering intent that does a grey mapping close to ab=0,0 and not to what XYZ scaling predicts. I know many color server device link profiles (F39 - F52 and also ECI-RGB to F52) that does this job. regards Andy Kraushaar PS: So please believe me that the people that doing this huge (unpaid) efforts also do check the separation, yes! Wir stellen den Hintergrund in den Vordergrund. We put the background in the foreground.

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PSO Coated v3 separations
by Mike Strickler 24 Aug '18

24 Aug '18

> > No consolation when you’ve got the image maker, who often isn’t the client, crying in the viewing booth :( > > This is a real problem when clients are used to you being able to pull problematic images, fix them up and replace them seamlessly and economically in most jobs. > > With 51 you have to reject all the images and then hand out a fact sheet on how they have to shift to perceptual (even if it looks different in Photoshop) and, even then, it still won’t boost the yellows (or reduce the magenta in our case) in the same way that non-Photoshop workflows do. > I know, but is this really any different from all the other difficulties customers presented you with before this? What happened when they converted to ISO Uncoated or an IFRA news profile and posterized some colors by using rel col instead of perceptual? Why not ask them to use the older ISO Ctd v2 and you take it the rest of the way—and ask for original RGB images when they have them? And get or make some decent device links with better highlight scaling? Mike

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PSO Coated v3 separations
by Mike Strickler 22 Aug '18

22 Aug '18

Hi Martin, I think there are really two issues. First, these two print conditions were a response to a widespread need to characterize printing on press stocks that contain elevated levels of optical brighteners. These papers themselves might be viewed as the problem—it is very hard to make flesh tones look attractive on a bluish paper. But it’s also essential that any images to be printed on these paper be converted to profiles based on these print conditions in order to (partially) compensate for the show-through effect. I say “partially” because it may not be possible with perceptual or relative colorimetric to scale the correction (mainly +Y) fully into the high values, as it would result in an abrupt transition to paper value. The good news is that the blame can be placed on the customer who specs the paper. BTW, it’s critical that the proof should be made of the converted file, not the original. In the latter case the assignment of the profile would show completely uncorrected bluishness (like “Preserve CMYK Numbers” in Photoshop’s Proof Setup) and would of course be inaccurate. In any case, these profiles are just the messenger ... Mike > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 22:49:33 +0100 > From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> > To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" > <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> > Subject: PSO Coated v3 separations > Message-ID: <64F1C4F4-605A-4861-A73F-5D5D31F4C223(a)idea-digital.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Is it just me that thinks that FOGRA51 produces inferior separations and unacceptable skin colour? > > Just like FOGRA52 we get separations that lack yellow when we need MORE yellow to create an acceptable skin colour. > > Who makes the decisions about colour reproduction for these standards? > > Have they proofed and printed the BVDM Roman 16 images with the Green and Blue backgrounds? > > Did they honestly believe that skin the colour of boiled ham was acceptable? > > This causes a lot of problems in pre-press workflows because clients supplying Photoshop CMYK end up with terrible looking images and any that we edit using commercial separation software (that corrects the yellow deficiency) look nothing like the images in the rest of the job. > > This wasn’t the case with FOGRA39. > > The new standards are producing substandard results :(

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Subject: PSO Coated v3 separations
by Don Hutcheson 22 Aug '18

22 Aug '18

Martin, A few questions; What source profile did you attach to the Roman images? Did you use a standard-issue Fogra ICC profile, or one created by another entity? What rendering intent did you use? How closely does your press match the Fogra51 color space? For example, if you print a whole IT8.7/4 (or IT8.7/5) target, what are the average, peak and 95th percentile numbers in dE00? Don ************************** Don Hutcheson President HutchColor, LLC 908-500-0341 don(a)hutchcolor.com ************************** > On Aug 22, 2018, at 15:00 ,Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com <mailto:martin@idea-digital.com>> wrote: > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 22:49:33 +0100 > From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com <mailto:martin@idea-digital.com>> > To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com <http://lists.apple.com/>' List" > <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> > Subject: PSO Coated v3 separations > Message-ID: <64F1C4F4-605A-4861-A73F-5D5D31F4C223(a)idea-digital.com <mailto:64F1C4F4-605A-4861-A73F-5D5D31F4C223@idea-digital.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Is it just me that thinks that FOGRA51 produces inferior separations and unacceptable skin colour? > > Just like FOGRA52 we get separations that lack yellow when we need MORE yellow to create an acceptable skin colour. > > Who makes the decisions about colour reproduction for these standards? > > Have they proofed and printed the BVDM Roman 16 images with the Green and Blue backgrounds? > > Did they honestly believe that skin the colour of boiled ham was acceptable? > > This causes a lot of problems in pre-press workflows because clients supplying Photoshop CMYK end up with terrible looking images and any that we edit using commercial separation software (that corrects the yellow deficiency) look nothing like the images in the rest of the job. > > This wasn’t the case with FOGRA39. > > The new standards are producing substandard results :( > > -- > Martin Orpen > Idea Digital Imaging Ltd >

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