February 2020 - colorsync-users

RE: Monitor Uniformity study
by graxx＠videotron.ca 11 Feb '20

11 Feb '20

Here's a manufacturer that's willing to post uniformity information on their product web page: https://displaysolutions.samsung.com/monitor/detail/822/U32D970Q I have not read through the rest of the specs but I like these two sentences: > Every UD970 is individually calibrated for uniformity > correction by splitting the display into 25 sections, and then > adjusting the brightness of individual sections uniformly > with the calibrator. This results in center and peripheral > areas that maintain an amazing calibration accuracy of > △E<3. Less than 3 DeltaE? Really? That's not a bad performance. / Roger

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RE: Monitor Uniformity study
by graxx＠videotron.ca 11 Feb '20

11 Feb '20

I found a site (!) with a good review of a 4K 31" monitor, which included the result of a full uniformity analysis, for those who are interested: https://photographylife.com/reviews/benq-sw320 Scroll towards the bottom of the page to find the (DispCal) uniformity report. It's a lot of numbers but the information is *invaluable*, IMO: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkt8GT4_TY9ifwXDwUA?e=K1DScO I'm not trying to bash anyone but If every 31" monitor of this make, coming out of the assembly line have a similar "Uniformity profile", ranging from 98 (-18%) to 121 Cd/m2, using the accepted 10% tolerance criteria then... well, you can draw your own conclusions. / Roger

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RE: Monitor Uniformity study
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Feb '20

10 Feb '20

Monitor uniformity information is impossible to obtain from monitor manufacturers. I agree with some List participants, here, who argue that "You get what you pay for", in the sense that, the more "expensive" models happen to have "handpicked panels" -- you get what you paid for. Many monitors incorporate what's called "Digital Uniformity Equalizer" or "Digital Brightness Compensation". This is good -- when it works, though! To me, it's not enough to claim that brand X *has* a digital compensation option: there should be some claim as to how good this option is, with some supporting figures, so that, for example, "without compensation", brightness / color variation across the screen could be 13% and, "with compensation", it drops down to 7%, you see?, or some similar kind of claim. And it should state, in my opinion, for how long can this be expected to hold. At the price that "high-end" monitors sell for, these days, is it too much to know this information in advance? I'm all for "100% AdobeRGB" or 98% DCI-P3" and "16-bit LUT" kinds of features but we are entitled to also know what kind of "quality" we are getting for the money, in terms of "uniformity" -- there's life beyond "gamuts" and "gammas" and "HDR". Take the latest IDEAlliance SoftProofing Certification Protocol. A monitor manufacturer has to meet ISO-14861:2015 uniformity tolerance, and that's max 10% Luminance, across the surface of the screen, if I'm not mistaking, and under 4 Delta units (C* or E*, can't remember?). This is not a rant against any particular monitor manufacturers but I figure, if I'm going to pay close to $3,000 for a top-of-the-line unit, I would *love* to find out how "uniform" the panel is, and for how long can I expect it to stay that way, before I place the order and later argue with tech support that the panel is performing poorly? (And having to return the display for refund because of disappointing performance...) / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 12:08 PM To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Monitor Uniformity study After much work and trepidation, I am at the point where I can release the findings enclosed in this PDF: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkt8B_bNYu4eo-D74bQ?e=K6gqTQ My goal was to come up with some kind of useful visualization for a monitor Luminance and chromaticity variation, across its surface. I experimented with different approaches and I'd be interested in any feedback. I wish I had initially measured the three monitors enclosed in this study so that I would have some kind of point of comparison - my bad. All I can say is that I enjoyed these monitors for many years and even though they're "off a little", now, they still serve useful purposes. These days, I'm in the market for a new LED 32 incher (the new Apple Pro is outside of my range.). I've emailed a few monitor manufacturers with regards to the kind of warranty they can give in terms of "uniformity" (but not Apple? John, if you have information you can share, here.). So far, no answer. For a Display to have no more than 10% deviation in Luminance or less than 5 dE2000, from the center of the screen, as ISO 14861:2015 and ISO-13646 call for, given the "natural" drifting to be expected with aging of ANY monitors, means pretty stringent requirements, initially. / Roger Breton (from a cold -22C, here, in Montreal.) _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx(a)videotron.ca

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Monitor Uniformity study
by graxx＠videotron.ca 10 Feb '20

10 Feb '20

After much work and trepidation, I am at the point where I can release the findings enclosed in this PDF: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkt8B_bNYu4eo-D74bQ?e=K6gqTQ My goal was to come up with some kind of useful visualization for a monitor Luminance and chromaticity variation, across its surface. I experimented with different approaches and I'd be interested in any feedback. I wish I had initially measured the three monitors enclosed in this study so that I would have some kind of point of comparison - my bad. All I can say is that I enjoyed these monitors for many years and even though they're "off a little", now, they still serve useful purposes. These days, I'm in the market for a new LED 32 incher (the new Apple Pro is outside of my range.). I've emailed a few monitor manufacturers with regards to the kind of warranty they can give in terms of "uniformity" (but not Apple? John, if you have information you can share, here.). So far, no answer. For a Display to have no more than 10% deviation in Luminance or less than 5 dE2000, from the center of the screen, as ISO 14861:2015 and ISO-13646 call for, given the "natural" drifting to be expected with aging of ANY monitors, means pretty stringent requirements, initially. / Roger Breton (from a cold -22C, here, in Montreal.)

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Two monitors, side by side
by graxx＠videotron.ca 08 Feb '20

08 Feb '20

I managed to pull my old CG-21 of the moth balls, to serve as a second display - how could have I ever lived without this convenience? Crazy. Of course, first thing I did was to try to make it "look" like my NEC PA271W. They're both LCD monitors yet, at the same chromaticity and Luminance, they don't look the "same". One is "reddish" (CG-21) while the other (NEC) is "greenish". Any suggestions? / Roger

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RE: Two monitors, side by side
by graxx＠videotron.ca 06 Feb '20

06 Feb '20

Wayne, Part of you reply would attribute the visual difference to my deviating from the Standard Observer? This would imply that, given a relatively large number of people seeing the difference in the two display white points, "on average", the consensus is that "they would match"? I confess I have no idea to what extent my color vision deviates from the 1931/2 color matching functions ☹ / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2020 1:55 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Two monitors, side by side Charles J. Hirsch of RCA, in November 1964, published a paper in the IEEE Transactions on Broadcast and Television Receivers, "A study of the need for color controls on color TV receivers in a color TV system operating perfectly." In this paper he analyzed the effects of differences in spectral response among individual observers with normal color discrimination, as recorded by Gibson and Tyndall in 1923-24. Hirsch's conclusion was that with NTSC primaries (similar to Adobe RGB), adjustments of +/- 20% or more in the proportions of a mixture might be required to nullify the extremes of observer differences. In other words, do not expect that you are a match to the standard observer, and expect to see some difference between displays that have different spectra. I, too, have two disparate monitors, and they do not match exactly to my eye when the i1pro says they should. I use the larger, wider gamut one for judging images and the smaller one for menus. I also note that the mismatch when first turned on is much greater than after 30 minutes of warmup. I suspect this is due to change in the color of the fluorescent backlight as the internal pressure stabilizes. -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2020 10:21 AM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Two monitors, side by side I managed to pull my old CG-21 of the moth balls, to serve as a second display - how could have I ever lived without this convenience? Crazy. Of course, first thing I did was to try to make it "look" like my NEC PA271W. They're both LCD monitors yet, at the same chromaticity and Luminance, they don't look the "same". One is "reddish" (CG-21) while the other (NEC) is "greenish". Any suggestions? / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl(a)cox.net

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Important request, participation in software development study
by ivandarioarroyo＠gmail.com 05 Feb '20

05 Feb '20

Dear Engineers, When I write this message, I think I am writing to the best software developers in the world, or to those who are in the process of being one. I write to ask you a favor. I am a UMA PhD student and I study the use of formal and non-formal models in the software industry. According to 9 investigations, UML is not being used as it should, but the developers use their own models, designed by them or by their companies. However, these investigations have not included professionals like you, so I want to ask you to help me by answering this survey: If you have a Google account: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdG4bhNWfU3vzSKwG-0j8NuGW47_xmSY1f… Reply without logging in: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeNm99cxIyT65-5qR6ZCZoDNeFONTf_ODW… I also ask you to send this survey to other developers that you know and respect. Please help me, I promise that your contributions will be recognized in the publications that are possible, therefore, as an optional field I have included the name and email. My biggest goal is to unify all non-formal models to create a modeling language that is the heritage of the industry, built by all of us. If you want to know more, you can write to me at ivan.arroyo(a)uma.es, ivandarioarroyo(a)gmail.com or arcouml(a)gmail.com !!THANKS

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RE: Two monitors, side by side
by graxx＠videotron.ca 05 Feb '20

05 Feb '20

Gee! I'm "before my time" -- it's like Orson Well's promise : "We will sell no wine before its time". I wonder what all this "iccMax" is about? Best / Roger You're right, it was 2151 when they first discovered, what was it, "plasma something"? I remember Captain Kirk had to travel back in time to make sure this guy was going to take that first, historic, flight at that date... -----Original Message----- From: John Castronovo <jc(a)technicalphoto.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2020 3:31 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Two monitors, side by side Oldest Star Trek date mentioned in the series is 2151 -----Original Message----- From: Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2020 2:16 PM To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' Subject: RE: Two monitors, side by side Wayne, I agree moving to "laser" (narrow wavelength LED diodes a.k.a. SAMSUNG Quantum Dots?) is going to exacerbate individual observer differences. I remember reading this discussion on the list a while ago. Question: so, colorimeter see the monitors as "identical" because their respective spectra produce the same "signal" to the brain, in terms of "sensation". I don't suppose spectral measurements of their respective white points could not be used in some sort of advanced spectral matching computation? Hey! We're in 2020 😊 ... Isn't that the year of Star Trek? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2020 2:10 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Two monitors, side by side Well maybe... Part of the problem is the small population that has been used for determining the standard observer - the evidence of variability is plain, but it's more difficult to determine the reliability of the average. Plus I believe later research has shown some flaws in the standard observer (but, I believe, smaller than the variation). I haven't take a deep dive into the topic of new data, since the 1931 basis continues to be used and the personal variations (observer metamerism) are relatively large. By the way, individual variations are becoming more of a concern to the movie industry as they move to laser projectors. -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2020 11:59 AM To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Two monitors, side by side Wayne, Part of you reply would attribute the visual difference to my deviating from the Standard Observer? This would imply that, given a relatively large number of people seeing the difference in the two display white points, "on average", the consensus is that "they would match"? I confess I have no idea to what extent my color vision deviates from the 1931/2 color matching functions ☹ / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2020 1:55 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Two monitors, side by side Charles J. Hirsch of RCA, in November 1964, published a paper in the IEEE Transactions on Broadcast and Television Receivers, "A study of the need for color controls on color TV receivers in a color TV system operating perfectly." In this paper he analyzed the effects of differences in spectral response among individual observers with normal color discrimination, as recorded by Gibson and Tyndall in 1923-24. Hirsch's conclusion was that with NTSC primaries (similar to Adobe RGB), adjustments of +/- 20% or more in the proportions of a mixture might be required to nullify the extremes of observer differences. In other words, do not expect that you are a match to the standard observer, and expect to see some difference between displays that have different spectra. I, too, have two disparate monitors, and they do not match exactly to my eye when the i1pro says they should. I use the larger, wider gamut one for judging images and the smaller one for menus. I also note that the mismatch when first turned on is much greater than after 30 minutes of warmup. I suspect this is due to change in the color of the fluorescent backlight as the internal pressure stabilizes. -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2020 10:21 AM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Two monitors, side by side I managed to pull my old CG-21 of the moth balls, to serve as a second display - how could have I ever lived without this convenience? Crazy. Of course, first thing I did was to try to make it "look" like my NEC PA271W. They're both LCD monitors yet, at the same chromaticity and Luminance, they don't look the "same". One is "reddish" (CG-21) while the other (NEC) is "greenish". Any suggestions? / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl(a)cox.net _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl(a)cox.net _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/jc%40technicalphoto… This email sent to jc(a)technicalphoto.com

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RE: Two monitors, side by side
by graxx＠videotron.ca 05 Feb '20

05 Feb '20

Wayne, I agree moving to "laser" (narrow wavelength LED diodes a.k.a. SAMSUNG Quantum Dots?) is going to exacerbate individual observer differences. I remember reading this discussion on the list a while ago. Question: so, colorimeter see the monitors as "identical" because their respective spectra produce the same "signal" to the brain, in terms of "sensation". I don't suppose spectral measurements of their respective white points could not be used in some sort of advanced spectral matching computation? Hey! We're in 2020 😊 ... Isn't that the year of Star Trek? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2020 2:10 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Two monitors, side by side Well maybe... Part of the problem is the small population that has been used for determining the standard observer - the evidence of variability is plain, but it's more difficult to determine the reliability of the average. Plus I believe later research has shown some flaws in the standard observer (but, I believe, smaller than the variation). I haven't take a deep dive into the topic of new data, since the 1931 basis continues to be used and the personal variations (observer metamerism) are relatively large. By the way, individual variations are becoming more of a concern to the movie industry as they move to laser projectors. -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2020 11:59 AM To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Two monitors, side by side Wayne, Part of you reply would attribute the visual difference to my deviating from the Standard Observer? This would imply that, given a relatively large number of people seeing the difference in the two display white points, "on average", the consensus is that "they would match"? I confess I have no idea to what extent my color vision deviates from the 1931/2 color matching functions ☹ / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Bretl <waynebretl(a)cox.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2020 1:55 PM To: graxx(a)videotron.ca; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Two monitors, side by side Charles J. Hirsch of RCA, in November 1964, published a paper in the IEEE Transactions on Broadcast and Television Receivers, "A study of the need for color controls on color TV receivers in a color TV system operating perfectly." In this paper he analyzed the effects of differences in spectral response among individual observers with normal color discrimination, as recorded by Gibson and Tyndall in 1923-24. Hirsch's conclusion was that with NTSC primaries (similar to Adobe RGB), adjustments of +/- 20% or more in the proportions of a mixture might be required to nullify the extremes of observer differences. In other words, do not expect that you are a match to the standard observer, and expect to see some difference between displays that have different spectra. I, too, have two disparate monitors, and they do not match exactly to my eye when the i1pro says they should. I use the larger, wider gamut one for judging images and the smaller one for menus. I also note that the mismatch when first turned on is much greater than after 30 minutes of warmup. I suspect this is due to change in the color of the fluorescent backlight as the internal pressure stabilizes. -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net(a)lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2020 10:21 AM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Two monitors, side by side I managed to pull my old CG-21 of the moth balls, to serve as a second display - how could have I ever lived without this convenience? Crazy. Of course, first thing I did was to try to make it "look" like my NEC PA271W. They're both LCD monitors yet, at the same chromaticity and Luminance, they don't look the "same". One is "reddish" (CG-21) while the other (NEC) is "greenish". Any suggestions? / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl(a)cox.net _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl(a)cox.net

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