January 2024 - colorsync-users

PX profile bug fixed
by Remington, David 26 Jan '24

26 Jan '24

Profile error bug seems to be fixed in PS 25.4 update. David David Remington Manager, Digital Imaging and Photography Services Harvard Library Discovery and Access D-70A Widener Library Cambridge, MA 02138 p 617-495-4701 w https://imaging.library.harvard.edu<http://library.harvard.edu/preservation/digital-imaging> e david_remington(a)harvard.edu<mailto:daivid_remington@harvard.edu> From: colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com>

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Color Tech Evolution
by Jeff Nova 21 Jan '24

21 Jan '24

I argued for CIELAB ranges to be expanded but this is minor. I reserve the right to be wrong - happens every day - but it seems it is one of a handful of issues facing color management. The death of sRGB - the time has come History shows many attempts - often successful - to improve upon CIELAB. We all know its failures. Why aren’t they used? Standard observer 10deg using 2015 data should be the default but we insist on 2deg original Tech has arrived - become the norm - with massive luminance and we have not adapted well to this D50 for pre-press? It’s just too warm. Revive D60! Or another white point. D50 is not great Steve, I understand that turning an enormous ship like the ICC spec or CMSs etc is not practically something easy to do. But I feel things may be adding up here into an iceberg. Thanks in advance to anyone who helps me understand any ways that I am misinformed. I learn every day and being wrong is always the prequel! - J

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Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1
by Scott Martin 20 Jan '24

20 Jan '24

Thanks for this Steve - I appreciate your perspective. I also like the "beginning of the workflow” concept. Scott Martin www.on-sight.com Imaging Science for Art > On Jan 19, 2024, at 2:01 PM, Steve Upton <notupton(a)chromix.com> wrote: > > >> On Jan 11, 2024, at 10:05 AM, Scott Martin via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: >> ... >> And yes, “over-range” lab values are real and needed! I photographed some artwork yesterday that used over-range vales... > > Scott, > > I understand the desire to have over-ranged Lab values but I think the idea has challenges in today's color architecture: > > - The ICC PCS's (profile connection space for those unfamiliar) a* and b* dimensions are restricted to -128 -> 127 > > - This means all ICC profiles in the workflow, including display profiles, are restricted to the same ranges > > So while I see the desire to be able to enter over-ranged values, there are no ICC profiles that have any LUT entries for dealing with the obvious gamut mapping that is going to have to occur... I'm curious how they are mapped today. I guess it's a linear process using DNG definitions > > I also see the value in Lightroom allowing such over ranges as it's a "beginning of the workflow" tool that shows photographers their source color values AND maps them into the restrictions of the rest of the workflow. I can see wanting Photoshop to be able to do the same thing but it seems much riskier as users might expect (and use) those over ranges for other purposes than just importing photographs that might contain them in their DNG-defined spaces > > regards, > > Steve >

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Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1
by John Castronovo 18 Jan '24

18 Jan '24

I switched from the Adobe (ACE) color engine to Apple (CMM) and the problem went away. The BETA version of Photoshop is fixed, but 25.3.1 is broken. john castronovo From: Scott Martin Sent: Monday, January 15, 2024 6:45 PM To: John Castronovo Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1 Oh how weird. The profiles I have that weren’t showing up in 25.2.0 have reappeared in 25.3.1. Complicated this is. Scott Martin www.on-sight.com Imaging Science for Art On Jan 14, 2024, at 10:02 PM, John Castronovo <jc(a)technicalphoto.com> wrote: Not on my system. 25.3.1 still has this problem here. jc -----Original Message----- From: Scott Martin via colorsync-users Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 11:43 PM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1 This bug is fixed with the current release - Photoshop 25.3.1 Time to update. Scott Martin www.on-sight.com Imaging Science for Art On Jan 10, 2024, at 7:48 PM, Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: The Assign Profile bug has been fixed. It is now up to how long Adobe will take to provide the next release to the general public. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ On Jan 10, 2024, at 4:25 PM, Remington, David via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote: Bug thread I opened is here. https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-bugs/p-photoshop-25-2-am… Solution for the moment is use an older version for assign and convert. I’m using the extended support v24.7.2 as backup. David David Remington Manager, Digital Imaging and Photography Services Harvard Library Discovery and Access D-70A Widener Library Cambridge, MA 02138 _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/jc%40technicalphoto… This email sent to jc(a)technicalphoto.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com

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Re: CIELAB value precision and ranges
by Jeff Nova 14 Jan '24

14 Jan '24

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FW: Lab decimal PS Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 3
by Remington, David 12 Jan '24

12 Jan '24

From: Remington, David <david_remington(a)harvard.edu> Date: Friday, January 12, 2024 at 4:27 PM To: Andrew Rodney <andrew(a)digitaldog.net>, colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Cc: Scott Martin <scott(a)on-sight.com> Subject: Re: Lab decimal PS Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 3 Andrew and Scott, Got it. I see. There are many features in Lightroom I would like to see migrated to Photoshop/Camera RAW/Bridge. We use both. I was not aware of this one though. We rarely run into originals that have information outside of the constrained Lab space. I would prefer Photoshop and Camera RAW match Lightroom as well. But this is the out of range Lab support issue. Photoshop can display decimal Lab values and that is useful for in range colors. Yes, screen shots in monitor space. David David Remington Manager, Digital Imaging and Photography Services Harvard Library Discovery and Access D-70A Widener Library Cambridge, MA 02138 p 617-495-4701 w https://imaging.library.harvard.edu<http://library.harvard.edu/preservation/digital-imaging> e david_remington(a)harvard.edu<mailto:daivid_remington@harvard.edu> From: Andrew Rodney <andrew(a)digitaldog.net> Date: Friday, January 12, 2024 at 1:01 PM To: Remington, David <david_remington(a)harvard.edu>, colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Lab decimal PS Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 3 This is the problem: Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ On Jan 12, 2024, at 8:53 AM, Remington, David <david_remington(a)harvard.edu> wrote: Looks the same to me.

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Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5
by bart 12 Jan '24

12 Jan '24

Do no now what to say ride now. Carry on! > On 12 Jan 2024, at 21:00, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > > Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of colorsync-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Lab decimal PS Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue > 3 (Scott Martin) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 12:32:49 -0600 > From: Scott Martin <scott(a)on-sight.com> > To: "colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com" > <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> > Subject: Re: Lab decimal PS Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue > 3 > Message-ID: <00A2AC12-28DD-4F56-865A-373BB240FB76(a)on-sight.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Andrew has it right - PS?s Lab values are on a scale of -128 to +128 while Lightroom supports ?over-range? values that go beyond this limitation (I?m not sure how much further). > > Here?s an example with a real photograph made yesterday: > > www.on-sight.com/images/Overrange_Lab_value_support.jpg > > Lightroom has over-range support and Photoshop does not. This product is 35 years old and still doesn?t have professional level color specification and identification support. Sad. > > Also, MacOS saves screen grabs in the display color space - that's what you're seeing Steve J. He doesn?t normally work in display color spaces. There are ways of changing this system default - I changed mine so that screen grabs are saved in sRGB for reduced file size. > > Also who is Steve J at Apple ColorSync!? You?re freaking me out a little, lol. Ghost anyone? > > Scott Martin > www.on-sight.com > Imaging Science for Art > >> On Jan 12, 2024, at 12:03?PM, Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: >> >> This is the problem: >> >> http://digitaldog.net/files/LabMismatch.png >> >> Andrew Rodney >> http://www.digitaldog.net/ >> >>> On Jan 12, 2024, at 8:53?AM, Remington, David <david_remington(a)harvard.edu> wrote: >>> >>> Looks the same to me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/scott%40on-sight.com >> >> This email sent to scott(a)on-sight.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > colorsync-users mailing list > colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users > > > ------------------------------ > > End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5 > **********************************************

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Lab decimal PS Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 3
by Remington, David 12 Jan '24

12 Jan '24

Photoshop can display Lab values to two decimal places. Change the Color Picker in the info palette to 32 bit. You can’t enter a decimal value in the Color Picker though. I do find displaying Lab to two decimals useful in our workflows. Latest release version, Photoshop 25.3.1 has the bug. Fixed in Beta. David David Remington Manager, Digital Imaging and Photography Services Harvard Library Discover and Access D-70A Widener Library Cambridge, MA 02138 p 617-495-4701 w https://imaging.library.harvard.edu<http://library.harvard.edu/preservation/digital-imaging> e david_remington(a)harvard.edu<mailto:daivid_remington@harvard.edu> From: colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> Date: Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 3:00 PM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 3 Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of colorsync-users digest..." ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 10:39:01 -0700 From: Andrew Rodney <andrew(a)digitaldog.net> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1 Message-ID: <E8EA8048-13D7-4F0D-B8FE-FB8C44D68547(a)digitaldog.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jan 11, 2024, at 10:17?AM, Scott Martin via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > I don?t understand why Photoshop wouldn?t support Lab decimals. In some cases, changing a single Lab integer can change the RGB value by 3-5 points - a big jump! We need more precision. Meanwhile, Lightroom Classic does show Lab values with decimals and doesn?t truncate the values ( of ?Imaginary? colors that fall outside of it) to +/- 127 like Photoshop. I?ve begged the PS team to implement the same scale in Photoshop since Lightroom Classic could support Lab values, and it fell on deaf ears. Why can?t two Adobe apps with the same processing engine share the same scales? So, we need a massive number of Photoshop users to keep making the request. https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-ideas/how-do-i-write-a-f… Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 12:05:36 -0600 From: Scott Martin <scott(a)on-sight.com> To: Andrew Rodney <andrew(a)digitaldog.net> Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1 Message-ID: <C8969364-8A04-47B8-BC97-C7587D4EE53C(a)on-sight.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes good point Andrew. I use those Lab values in Lightroom everyday and find the one decimal to be perfect for image development. Two decimals would be better in InDesign, PS and Illustrator. InDesign is the best citizen as it already does this. And yes, ?over-range? lab values are real and needed! I photographed some artwork yesterday that used over-range vales... Scott Martin www.on-sight.com<http://www.on-sight.com> Imaging Science for Art > On Jan 11, 2024, at 11:39?AM, Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jan 11, 2024, at 10:17?AM, Scott Martin via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: >> >> I don?t understand why Photoshop wouldn?t support Lab decimals. In some cases, changing a single Lab integer can change the RGB value by 3-5 points - a big jump! We need more precision. > > Meanwhile, Lightroom Classic does show Lab values with decimals and doesn?t truncate the values ( of ?Imaginary? colors that fall outside of it) to +/- 127 like Photoshop. I?ve begged the PS team to implement the same scale in Photoshop since Lightroom Classic could support Lab values, and it fell on deaf ears. Why can?t two Adobe apps with the same processing engine share the same scales? > So, we need a massive number of Photoshop users to keep making the request. > > https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-ideas/how-do-i-write-a-f… > > Andrew Rodney > http://www.digitaldog.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/scott%40on-sight.com > > This email sent to scott(a)on-sight.com End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 3 **********************************************

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Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 3
by Jeff Nova 12 Jan '24

12 Jan '24

And even better, how about supporting larger values for the an and b channels? Technically unbounded by the CIE, and many colors that are real and visible outside of the range. It was an ancient developer’s convenience (8bpc) to clamp it to +/- 127, as far as I can tell. thanks, Andrew, I’ll add my vote. - J > On Jan 11, 2024, at 12:00 PM, colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com wrote: > > Lightroom Classic does show Lab values with decimals and doesn?t truncate the values ( of ?Imaginary? colors that fall outside of it) to +/- 127 like Photoshop

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Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1
by Remington, David 11 Jan '24

11 Jan '24

Bug thread I opened is here. https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-bugs/p-photoshop-25-2-am… Solution for the moment is use an older version for assign and convert. I’m using the extended support v24.7.2 as backup. David David Remington Manager, Digital Imaging and Photography Services Harvard Library Discovery and Access D-70A Widener Library Cambridge, MA 02138 p 617-495-4701 w https://imaging.library.harvard.edu<http://library.harvard.edu/preservation/digital-imaging> e david_remington(a)harvard.edu<mailto:daivid_remington@harvard.edu> From: colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com <colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com> Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 3:00 PM To: colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1 Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request(a)lists.apple.com You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner(a)lists.apple.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of colorsync-users digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Scanner profiles invalid in Photoshop (John Castronovo) 2. Re: Scanner profiles invalid in Photoshop (Martin Orpen) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:50:15 -0500 From: "John Castronovo" <jc(a)technicalphoto.com> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Scanner profiles invalid in Photoshop Message-ID: <5F1CCB0EE74F4468BC4C7EB812328EE4@castronovoden> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original I was hoping to be spared from this issue, but today I lost access to over 100 profiles, most of which I frankly don't use, but some very important ones are showing but can't be activated. I'm using a Mac Studio on Ventura. I tried profile medic in Chromix Colorthink Pro and Colosync was no help either. Any suggestions? john castronovo -----Original Message----- From: Martin Orpen via colorsync-users Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2023 3:37 PM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List Subject: Re: Scanner profiles invalid in Photoshop > On 7 Dec 2023, at 18:44, Scott Martin via colorsync-users > <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > Andrew do you have any constructive thoughts to add here? IE: Is more than > your one Imacon profile working? What software are your scanner profiles > made with? Do you have a variety of profiles made from different software > and are they all working? And are you on MacOS PS 25.2.0? > > Martin, it could be good troubleshooting to send Andrew a profile that?s > not working on your system and see if it's working on his. Hi Scott Yes, I?ll send Andrew a small scanner profile via email. My testing shows that the versions of Photoshop 2024 and the Beta release that were updated in the last few days are unable to preview or assign scanner profiles that use Lab PCS. Versions prior to this work as expected. I noticed this because I was able to assign profiles to images on a scanning job that I was working on on December 1st. When I tried to pick up where I left off on the same job this morning it was impossible to assign the profiles that were been used without a problem less than a week ago. I tried another Mac which has the same version of PS and it won?t work either. Like yours, my scanner profiles have been built in i1Profiler ? so this could be vendor specific, but I think that it is more likely something to do with the Lab PCS. Cheers ? Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/jc%40technicalphoto… This email sent to jc(a)technicalphoto.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:50:36 +0000 From: Martin Orpen <martin(a)idea-digital.com> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Scanner profiles invalid in Photoshop Message-ID: <98C2AA72-6AED-45CC-9944-D5DF5B66D815(a)idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 10 Jan 2024, at 18:50, John Castronovo via colorsync-users <colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com> wrote: > > I was hoping to be spared from this issue, but today I lost access to over 100 profiles, most of which I frankly don't use, but some very important ones are showing but can't be activated. I'm using a Mac Studio on Ventura. I tried profile medic in Chromix Colorthink Pro and Colosync was no help either. Any suggestions? Hi John Install or use any version of Photoshop prior to 25.2.0. It?s a bug in Photoshop, so the profiles don?t need fixing? Photoshop does. ? Martin Idea Digital Imaging ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ colorsync-users mailing list colorsync-users(a)lists.apple.com https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users ------------------------------ End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 1 **********************************************

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