Hi Refik, I do understand. We need people coming to Fogra expressing their “pain” and also their will to contribute a potential research project – if you cannot proof the economic pain of small and medium enterprises through this problem there is no research money (for applied science funds). Regards Andy From: Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> Sent: 03 April 2024 23:24 To: andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de; 'Henry Davis' <davishr@bellsouth.net>; colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Hi Andy,
From the way it is expressing itself in my daily field work, observer metamerism is already a very real problem.
But I can also understand the reluctance of my colleagues to address the problem directly. The idea of using standard color gamut displays for soft proofing is probably seen by many as taking a step back. However, the whole issue needs to be discussed from the stand point of its usefulness in managing the print production process. A lot distance has already been covered. Refik Telhan From: Andreas Kraushaar <andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de <mailto:andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de> > Date: 3 April 2024 Wednesday 09:53 To: "rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com> " <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com> >, 'Henry Davis' <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> >, <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> > Subject: RE: Monitor/display suggestions? Hi Refik, if we don’t find an editor (people being motivated – and not only idealistically), we might consider starting a revision. Otherwise, it will remain as is … lets see if observer metamerism become a real problem. regards Andy Dr.-Ing. Andreas Kraushaar Abt. Vorstufentechnik Fogra Forschungsinstitut für Medientechnologien e.V. Einsteinring 1a 85609 Aschheim b. München Telefon: +49 89. 431 82 - 335 Telefax: +49 89. 431 82 - 100 E-mail: <mailto:kraushaar@fogra.org> kraushaar@fogra.org Internet: <http://www.fogra.org> www.fogra.org From: Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com> > Sent: 03 April 2024 01:57 To: andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de <mailto:andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de> ; 'Henry Davis' <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> >; colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Hi Andy, The article by Steve Le Moan et. al is already on my reading list. It is one of the many attempts to quantify observer metameric mismatch. This issue may not have resonated much some years ago. But it is now a growing problem as we are seeing more displays with even narrower bandwidth primaries. I have started measuring the monitor white spectrally when observer metameric mismatch problems began surfacing in 2017 when my clients started replacing their CG 211s with WCG displays from different vendors. The problem is very much real. All of my clients had problems in adjusting themselves to the new situation and some are still having problems. As I have written in a previous message, I have even witnessed a situation where one of the observers in a multi observer color correction session asked the operator to reduce magenta in a grayscale image thinking that the image was a 4-color CMYK gray image. I hope by the time ISO 12646 and ISO 14861 go into the revision process, an established metrics on observer metameric mismatch becomes part of these standards in either the normative or the informative section. Refik Telhan -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Kraushaar < <mailto:andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de%20%3cmailto:andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de> andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de <mailto:andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de>> Date: 2 April 2024 Tuesday 10:39 To: " <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com%20%3cmailto:rtelhan@icloud.com%3e> rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>" < <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com%20%3cmailto:rtelhan@icloud.com> rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>>, 'Henry Davis' < <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net%20%3cmailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>>, < <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com%20%3cmailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: RE: Monitor/display suggestions? Hi Refik, all, after 20+ years in standardization I can say that any industry gets the standards it deserves. We did create ISO 12646 to specify criteria for demanding graphic arts work and we are testing monitors <https://fogra.org/en/certification/prepress-technology/softproof-monitor> https://fogra.org/en/certification/prepress-technology/softproof-monitor < <https://fogra.org/en/certification/prepress-technology/softproof-monitor> https://fogra.org/en/certification/prepress-technology/softproof-monitor>. So if there would be a pain/motivation to update this ... Regards Andy PS: BTW, we also developed a method to indicate the observer metamerism potential (and presented it at European Display Conference) - but the feedback was zero. <https://fogra.org/en/downloads/work-tools/softproof-lighting> https://fogra.org/en/downloads/work-tools/softproof-lighting < <https://fogra.org/en/downloads/work-tools/softproof-lighting> https://fogra.org/en/downloads/work-tools/softproof-lighting> look for: An observer-metamerism sensitivity index for electronic displays Dr.-Ing. Andreas Kraushaar Abt. Vorstufentechnik Fogra Forschungsinstitut für Medientechnologien e.V. Einsteinring 1a 85609 Aschheim b. München Telefon: +49 89. 431 82 - 335 Telefax: +49 89. 431 82 - 100 E-mail: <mailto:kraushaar@fogra.org> kraushaar@fogra.org < <mailto:kraushaar@fogra.org> mailto:kraushaar@fogra.org> Internet: <http://www.fogra.org> www.fogra.org