Marc is correct, and I’ll add more. Downsteam applications such as RIPs and color servers normally (or at least should) ignore the Alternate Color Space and search for the spot color by name in its internal libraries and apply the Lab value. The Alternate Color Space exists as a fail-safe to defer to when color information for the spot color can't be found by that application, assuming its color settings allow for such a substitution. It is better that they don’t, of course, but just in case: In Illustrator enter the spot color’s Lab values (correct ones not Adobe’s) so as the Alternate Color Space so the result will still be correct. By the way, if a “Book” color is added to the swatch palette and it is a solid spot color (not process equivalent) Lab values should be automatically filled in as the Alternate Color color. They will be wrong because Adobe’s libraries are, but at least the color will look something like that specified in Pantone’s libraries and won’t be clipped to the CMYK press gamut. Good luck, Mike
On Jun 9, 2022, at 10:03 AM, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Today's Topics:
1. Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. (Axel Robert) 2. Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. (Jon Meyer) 3. Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. (Axel Robert) 4. Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. (typhoon correctcolor.org) 5. Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. (Axel Robert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 14:03:34 +0000 From: Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com> To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. Message-ID: <EE772B4C-D403-4519-9407-9B41DBDC70D9@contoso.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Good afternoon.
I was wondering if somebody else already experienced and solved this problem, as well.
We built, dedicated to creative agencies, a specific color settings and pdf export couple for certain production files in which we manage ourselves the RGB to CMYK conversion. It?s almost a late binding workflow before sending the final PDF to our printers.
So, all raster images remain in a specific RGB color space while Benday and vectors are still in CMYK.
So far, we did have any issue, but we recently received a document with a Spot Color template in it. And when we checked it, it appeared it had been tagged on the Alternate Color Space with an ICC profile (no more specific indication).
We tried to find why without any success. But we also experienced the same after many tests in In Design and Illustrator by creating a simple vector shape to which we added a Spot Color from the latest Pantone library.
The PDF export has no color conversion except an OI and OC for the PDF itself. And despite all the color swatches we use, the result is equal. The only difference lies when we use a PDF Export Preset which converts colors to the destination. In such a way, the Spot Color uses the CMYK mode as by default Alternate Color Space.
How is it possible? Would you have any idea?
Thanks! Axel
UBISOFT | Axel ROBERT |Senior Manager, Prepress & Quality Ubisoft encourages work/life balance and embraces flexibility. My workday may look different than your workday. I have sent this message at a time that suits my work pattern, but it is not my expectation that you read, respond or follow up on this email outside your working hours.
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 11:01:52 -0400 From: Jon Meyer <jonmeyer@grafixgear.com> To: Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com> Cc: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. Message-ID: <95374687-8660-4672-A044-225B03485A99@grafixgear.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hello Axel - The only correct way to describe spot color is in L*a*b* values. This is supported in Illustrator.
I would not waste time with attempting to rig another workflow (unless your RIP is not L*a*b* compliant - in which case one must reduce expectations to just pleasing color).
Jon
On Jun 9, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Axel Robert via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Good afternoon.
I was wondering if somebody else already experienced and solved this problem, as well.
We built, dedicated to creative agencies, a specific color settings and pdf export couple for certain production files in which we manage ourselves the RGB to CMYK conversion. It?s almost a late binding workflow before sending the final PDF to our printers.
So, all raster images remain in a specific RGB color space while Benday and vectors are still in CMYK.
So far, we did have any issue, but we recently received a document with a Spot Color template in it. And when we checked it, it appeared it had been tagged on the Alternate Color Space with an ICC profile (no more specific indication).
We tried to find why without any success. But we also experienced the same after many tests in In Design and Illustrator by creating a simple vector shape to which we added a Spot Color from the latest Pantone library.
The PDF export has no color conversion except an OI and OC for the PDF itself. And despite all the color swatches we use, the result is equal. The only difference lies when we use a PDF Export Preset which converts colors to the destination. In such a way, the Spot Color uses the CMYK mode as by default Alternate Color Space.
How is it possible? Would you have any idea?
Thanks! Axel
UBISOFT | Axel ROBERT |Senior Manager, Prepress & Quality Ubisoft encourages work/life balance and embraces flexibility. My workday may look different than your workday. I have sent this message at a time that suits my work pattern, but it is not my expectation that you read, respond or follow up on this email outside your working hours.
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Message: 3 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 15:25:22 +0000 From: Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com> To: Jon Meyer <jonmeyer@grafixgear.com> Cc: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. Message-ID: <89385690-664F-4377-AC61-4099B2D8512A@ubisoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello Jon. This transformation unfortunately occurs in the Adobe export process itself before doing any ripping action afterwards. I know that Spot Colors shall be describe in Lab (even if some former Adobe Pantone swatches are still in CMYK). But the problem arises in the process from the source file to final PDF export, so far. That's why I don't understand this behavior, so far.
Sincerely. Axel
?On 09/06/2022 17:02, "Jon Meyer" <jonmeyer@grafixgear.com> wrote:
[You don't often get email from jonmeyer@grafixgear.com. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]
Hello Axel - The only correct way to describe spot color is in L*a*b* values. This is supported in Illustrator.
I would not waste time with attempting to rig another workflow (unless your RIP is not L*a*b* compliant - in which case one must reduce expectations to just pleasing color).
Jon
On Jun 9, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Axel Robert via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Good afternoon.
I was wondering if somebody else already experienced and solved this problem, as well.
We built, dedicated to creative agencies, a specific color settings and pdf export couple for certain production files in which we manage ourselves the RGB to CMYK conversion. It?s almost a late binding workflow before sending the final PDF to our printers.
So, all raster images remain in a specific RGB color space while Benday and vectors are still in CMYK.
So far, we did have any issue, but we recently received a document with a Spot Color template in it. And when we checked it, it appeared it had been tagged on the Alternate Color Space with an ICC profile (no more specific indication).
We tried to find why without any success. But we also experienced the same after many tests in In Design and Illustrator by creating a simple vector shape to which we added a Spot Color from the latest Pantone library.
The PDF export has no color conversion except an OI and OC for the PDF itself. And despite all the color swatches we use, the result is equal. The only difference lies when we use a PDF Export Preset which converts colors to the destination. In such a way, the Spot Color uses the CMYK mode as by default Alternate Color Space.
How is it possible? Would you have any idea?
Thanks! Axel
UBISOFT | Axel ROBERT |Senior Manager, Prepress & Quality Ubisoft encourages work/life balance and embraces flexibility. My workday may look different than your workday. I have sent this message at a time that suits my work pattern, but it is not my expectation that you read, respond or follow up on this email outside your working hours.
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------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 16:28:14 +0000 From: typhoon correctcolor.org <typhoon@correctcolor.org> To: Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com> Cc: Jon Meyer <jonmeyer@grafixgear.com>, "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. Message-ID: <827BD460-C299-4310-B331-D410FCFCA3C5@correctcolor.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Axel,
Actually, the way you describe spot colors in Illustrator should be irrelevant. If printing to a traditional press, then a spot color should be an actual ?spot? color, and a separate plate, and as long as it is, and you ink up that fountain with the right ink, it works.
If printing to digital, the ?spot? color is a L*a*b* value, but in the RIP, and that L*a*b* value in the RIP corresponds to the spot color name. The name is all that matters in the file. The name in the file must correspond exactly to the name in the RIP that is associated with the L*a*b* value that spot color should represent. If it?s a true spot color, the RIP will disregard any color information in the file and attempt to print that L*a*b* value, provided it recognizes the name, meaning that the name is in its spot color library, and that library is turned on.
Somewhere in your conversion, there?s always a ?convert spots to process? option. That needs to be disabled.
If your spots are coming through with any color information other than that they are spot colors, that would be the first place to look.
Mike Adams Correct Color
On Jun 9, 2022, at 10:25 AM, Axel Robert via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
Hello Jon. This transformation unfortunately occurs in the Adobe export process itself before doing any ripping action afterwards. I know that Spot Colors shall be describe in Lab (even if some former Adobe Pantone swatches are still in CMYK). But the problem arises in the process from the source file to final PDF export, so far. That's why I don't understand this behavior, so far.
Sincerely. Axel
?On 09/06/2022 17:02, "Jon Meyer" <jonmeyer@grafixgear.com<mailto:jonmeyer@grafixgear.com>> wrote:
[You don't often get email from jonmeyer@grafixgear.com<mailto:jonmeyer@grafixgear.com>. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]
Hello Axel - The only correct way to describe spot color is in L*a*b* values. This is supported in Illustrator.
I would not waste time with attempting to rig another workflow (unless your RIP is not L*a*b* compliant - in which case one must reduce expectations to just pleasing color).
Jon
On Jun 9, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Axel Robert via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
Good afternoon.
I was wondering if somebody else already experienced and solved this problem, as well.
We built, dedicated to creative agencies, a specific color settings and pdf export couple for certain production files in which we manage ourselves the RGB to CMYK conversion. It?s almost a late binding workflow before sending the final PDF to our printers.
So, all raster images remain in a specific RGB color space while Benday and vectors are still in CMYK.
So far, we did have any issue, but we recently received a document with a Spot Color template in it. And when we checked it, it appeared it had been tagged on the Alternate Color Space with an ICC profile (no more specific indication).
We tried to find why without any success. But we also experienced the same after many tests in In Design and Illustrator by creating a simple vector shape to which we added a Spot Color from the latest Pantone library.
The PDF export has no color conversion except an OI and OC for the PDF itself. And despite all the color swatches we use, the result is equal. The only difference lies when we use a PDF Export Preset which converts colors to the destination. In such a way, the Spot Color uses the CMYK mode as by default Alternate Color Space.
How is it possible? Would you have any idea?
Thanks! Axel
UBISOFT | Axel ROBERT |Senior Manager, Prepress & Quality Ubisoft encourages work/life balance and embraces flexibility. My workday may look different than your workday. I have sent this message at a time that suits my work pattern, but it is not my expectation that you read, respond or follow up on this email outside your working hours.
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.apple.com%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fcolorsync-users%2Fjonmeyer%2540grafixgear.com&data=05%7C01%7Caxel.robert%40ubisoft.com%7C3938909666e74509494008da4a28fe1f%7Ce01bd386fa514210a2a429e5ab6f7ab1%7C0%7C0%7C637903837314993528%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F9h3W5lZIQlY8yKxZEr39%2FJ67JuXAa00pCSJZS2C9U0%3D&reserved=0
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Message: 5 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 17:03:04 +0000 From: Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com> To: typhoon correctcolor.org <typhoon@correctcolor.org> Cc: Jon Meyer <jonmeyer@grafixgear.com>, "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export. Message-ID: <F6EAE73C-9FC8-42FD-9054-5816096F6269@ubisoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello Mike. Nice to meet you.
Thank you for your explanations. But I?m wondering if I finally did not explain my issue in a wrong way. ?
Because it?s not a RIP or DFE matter. The problem occurs at the beginning of the stage in the PDF itself. The Spot Color should be known with an Alternate Color Space in CMYK or Lab. And in such a manner, the result would be to read Lab or CMYK in it, right? However, The Alternate Color Space is tagged as ICC profile which is obviously odd.
So, my question is more about what happens during the export from the native file before any further transformations in a prepress workflow. ??
Best. Axel
From: "typhoon correctcolor.org" <typhoon@correctcolor.org> Date: Thursday 9 June 2022 at 18:28 To: Axel ROBERT <axel.robert@ubisoft.com> Cc: Jon Meyer <jonmeyer@grafixgear.com>, "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spot Colors | Alternate Color Space behaviour | PDF export.
You don't often get email from typhoon@correctcolor.org. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Axel,
Actually, the way you describe spot colors in Illustrator should be irrelevant. If printing to a traditional press, then a spot color should be an actual ?spot? color, and a separate plate, and as long as it is, and you ink up that fountain with the right ink, it works.
If printing to digital, the ?spot? color is a L*a*b* value, but in the RIP, and that L*a*b* value in the RIP corresponds to the spot color name. The name is all that matters in the file. The name in the file must correspond exactly to the name in the RIP that is associated with the L*a*b* value that spot color should represent. If it?s a true spot color, the RIP will disregard any color information in the file and attempt to print that L*a*b* value, provided it recognizes the name, meaning that the name is in its spot color library, and that library is turned on.
Somewhere in your conversion, there?s always a ?convert spots to process? option. That needs to be disabled.
If your spots are coming through with any color information other than that they are spot colors, that would be the first place to look.
Mike Adams Correct Color
On Jun 9, 2022, at 10:25 AM, Axel Robert via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
Hello Jon. This transformation unfortunately occurs in the Adobe export process itself before doing any ripping action afterwards. I know that Spot Colors shall be describe in Lab (even if some former Adobe Pantone swatches are still in CMYK). But the problem arises in the process from the source file to final PDF export, so far. That's why I don't understand this behavior, so far.
Sincerely. Axel
On 09/06/2022 17:02, "Jon Meyer" <jonmeyer@grafixgear.com<mailto:jonmeyer@grafixgear.com>> wrote:
[You don't often get email from jonmeyer@grafixgear.com<mailto:jonmeyer@grafixgear.com>. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]
Hello Axel - The only correct way to describe spot color is in L*a*b* values. This is supported in Illustrator.
I would not waste time with attempting to rig another workflow (unless your RIP is not L*a*b* compliant - in which case one must reduce expectations to just pleasing color).
Jon
On Jun 9, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Axel Robert via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
Good afternoon.
I was wondering if somebody else already experienced and solved this problem, as well.
We built, dedicated to creative agencies, a specific color settings and pdf export couple for certain production files in which we manage ourselves the RGB to CMYK conversion. It?s almost a late binding workflow before sending the final PDF to our printers.
So, all raster images remain in a specific RGB color space while Benday and vectors are still in CMYK.
So far, we did have any issue, but we recently received a document with a Spot Color template in it. And when we checked it, it appeared it had been tagged on the Alternate Color Space with an ICC profile (no more specific indication).
We tried to find why without any success. But we also experienced the same after many tests in In Design and Illustrator by creating a simple vector shape to which we added a Spot Color from the latest Pantone library.
The PDF export has no color conversion except an OI and OC for the PDF itself. And despite all the color swatches we use, the result is equal. The only difference lies when we use a PDF Export Preset which converts colors to the destination. In such a way, the Spot Color uses the CMYK mode as by default Alternate Color Space.
How is it possible? Would you have any idea?
Thanks! Axel
UBISOFT | Axel ROBERT |Senior Manager, Prepress & Quality Ubisoft encourages work/life balance and embraces flexibility. My workday may look different than your workday. I have sent this message at a time that suits my work pattern, but it is not my expectation that you read, respond or follow up on this email outside your working hours.
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