Axel, Am 19.11.2013 um 16:22 schrieb Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com>:
Dear all,
So if I understand well your explanations and I resume them, these several light indicator are just intended for a customer educational purpose, right?
If so, why they don't appear equal under a standard illuminant?
As Graeme pointed out it is very hard to formulate 2 paints/inks that perfectly match under all D50 simulators that are in tolerance with ISO 3664. It is as I said earlier. If you see big differences (for the Ugra strip you will see green and brown) it is no D50 simulation. But do not expect a perfect match in all standard conforming viewing cabinets.
I don't agree with you Class, when you asses I am using a wrong D50 simulation solution. Unless JustNormlicht is not able to develop consistent viewing booth with good fluorescents tube…
I will be a little disappointing for the customer, after all these explanations. After all, if I force the internal Marketing team to only see our digital proofs under a controlled system, what can I answer if they always show differences with the Light Indicators?
For the anecdote, I spent time, at the last DRUPA, on one of the light booth vendors stand. They demonstrate their precise spectrometer, to evaluate the conformity of their own light according to the ISO 3364 standard. Even with a new viewing booth and new Daylight 5000K tubes, the results were not ok for all the measure.
So, who is to believed?
Axel
De : "colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com>" <colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com>> Répondre à : "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Date : lundi 18 novembre 2013 21:00 À : "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Objet : Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 238
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Suggestions for a color accurate image browser (Matthew Ward) 2. Light indicator band issues. (Axel Robert) 3. Re: Light indicator band issues. (Graeme Gill) 4. Re: Light indicator band issues. (Mark Stegman) 5. Re: Light indicator band issues. (Claas Bickeböller) 6. Re: Light indicator band issues. (Daniel Westcott)
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Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 08:28:09 +0000 From: Matthew Ward <matthew@matthewwardphotography.com<mailto:matthew@matthewwardphotography.com>> To: Peter Miles <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz<mailto:P.Miles@massey.ac.nz>> Cc: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions for a color accurate image browser Message-ID: <252ABC35-B39C-47B8-8EE5-D40E02960B9F@matthewwardphotography.com<mailto:252ABC35-B39C-47B8-8EE5-D40E02960B9F@matthewwardphotography.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi you could try to make your own ProPhoto thumbnail images using something like Photoshop > File > Scripts > Image processor and replace them in the Cache? Bit of a faff but would probably work?
Best Matthew
On 12 Nov 2013, at 21:04, Peter Miles <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz<mailto:P.Miles@massey.ac.nz>> wrote:
Rick Gordon wrote: If you choose high-quality thumbnail from under the Thumbnail Quality icon, they should be color-managed. Mine are. From http://help.adobe.com/en_US/creativesuite/cs/using/WS308E3BB0-4D80-4940-A772... Thanks Gordon. Hmm... Version 5.1 does not have those icons that are refereed to in the text that I can see.. I can not speak for Bridge version 6 or CC. But for version 5.1 I can confirm whats on the adobe forum (see snip below). That bridge previews are in the sRGB color space. Bridge previews of my ProPhotoRGB images might be color managed, but in Bridge 5.1 they are a color managed conversion of my ProPhotoRGB images into the sRGB colorspace for thumbnails. I can confirm this for my self by going to my ~HomeDirectory/Library/caches/Adobe/Bridge CS5/Cache, locate the cached thumbnails for my ProPhotoRGB images. If I open them in photoshop, It warns me they have an embedded sRGB profile. I am working with highly saturated microscope images using rheinberg illumination. You can see the color differences between bridge view and photoshop that I am getting here http://tinyurl.com/n79lt83 . I have located the corresponding thumbnail in my Bridge cache folder and can confirm that the bridge thumbnail for this image is sRGB. Further the photoshop and bridge views match if I soft proof sRGB. Can anyone with Bridge CC or 6 confirm that they are seeing their ProphotoRGB image Bridge Cache files are in the sRGB color space. Or are your Bridge 6 or Bridge CC Cache files for your ProphotoRGB images also in the ProPhoto colorspace? I'd love to find a way to get bridge to display these microscope images the same color as they are when opened in photoshop. Regards Peter Miles snip from Adobe Forums... "For anyone following this thread, just a heads-up for future reference. It's been confirmed all previews in Bridge are in fact in sRGB. It's a bit surprising, but apparently true. More details at this thread." (http://forums.adobe.com/message/5180301#5180301) _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/matthew%40matthewwar... This email sent to matthew@matthewwardphotography.com<mailto:matthew@matthewwardphotography.com>
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 11:24:04 +0100 From: Axel Robert <axel.robert@ubisoft.com<mailto:axel.robert@ubisoft.com>> To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Light indicator band issues. Message-ID: <CEAFA591.1CF08%axel.robert@ubisoft.com<mailto:CEAFA591.1CF08%axel.robert@ubisoft.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Dear all,
I experience some problems with different light indicators like :
PANTONE® LIGHTING INDICATOR Stickers
PIA/GATF RHEM Light Indicator
Ugra/Fogra light indicator
Each one appears slightly different under the same light. E.g. with a colorCommunicator and fluorescent tubes 5000 K.
Has anybody already seen this issue before?
Is it possible to obtain non uniform results?
Could I trust them to put them on the digital proof prints?
Many thanks beforehand for your explanations sincerely,
Axel Robert | UBISOFT Tel. : +33 (0)1 48 18 52 03 | Port. : +33 (0)6 68 83 34 67 | Skype: axelprepress
”It is important that you know where you come from, because if you do not know where you come from,
then you don’t know where you are, and if you don’t know where you are, then you don’t know where you’re going.
And if you don’t know where you’re going, you’re probably going wrong .”
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Message: 3 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 23:32:47 +1100 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com<mailto:graeme2@argyllcms.com>> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Re: Light indicator band issues. Message-ID: <528A08EF.2030006@argyllcms.com<mailto:528A08EF.2030006@argyllcms.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Axel Robert wrote: Dear all, I experience some problems with different light indicators like : PANTONE® LIGHTING INDICATOR Stickers PIA/GATF RHEM Light Indicator Ugra/Fogra light indicator
Those indicators seem incredibly vague in what they are supposed to do, and under what conditions they "work".
The Pantone indicator talks about "being viewed under a 5000K (degrees Kelvin) standard light source.", and the others use similar terminology, but this is nonsense - such indicators depend on the colors being visual metamers under a certain light _spectrum_. Merely being the right color temperature is not sufficient to guarantee a match.
Graeme Gill.
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Message: 4 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 00:04:50 +1100 From: Mark Stegman <mark.stegman@gmail.com<mailto:mark.stegman@gmail.com>> To: "graeme@argyllcms.com<mailto:graeme@argyllcms.com>" <graeme@argyllcms.com<mailto:graeme@argyllcms.com>> Cc: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Re: Light indicator band issues. Message-ID: <2A642C5E-32C9-48A5-B544-5717FB2A4B45@gmail.com<mailto:2A642C5E-32C9-48A5-B544-5717FB2A4B45@gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Graeme,
You are teasing us. Please elaborate. I had the same 'ambitions' as Axel but only mirrored his disappointment.
What exactly is 'sufficient' to achieve a match with a metameric pair?
If these things are so inadequate why does UGRA/FOGRA/GATF market them?
Mark
On 18/11/2013, at 11:32 PM, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com<mailto:graeme2@argyllcms.com>> wrote:
Axel Robert wrote: Dear all, I experience some problems with different light indicators like : PANTONE® LIGHTING INDICATOR Stickers PIA/GATF RHEM Light Indicator Ugra/Fogra light indicator Those indicators seem incredibly vague in what they are supposed to do, and under what conditions they "work". The Pantone indicator talks about "being viewed under a 5000K (degrees Kelvin) standard light source.", and the others use similar terminology, but this is nonsense - such indicators depend on the colors being visual metamers under a certain light _spectrum_. Merely being the right color temperature is not sufficient to guarantee a match. Graeme Gill.
Mark
This email sent to mark.stegman@gmail.com<mailto:mark.stegman@gmail.com>
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Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:27:57 +0100 From: Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name<mailto:lists@bickeboeller.name>> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Re: Light indicator band issues. Message-ID: <76B1FC08-CDAC-403E-A56F-9770F4C363A0@bickeboeller.name<mailto:76B1FC08-CDAC-403E-A56F-9770F4C363A0@bickeboeller.name>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Dear all,
these indicators are good tools to warn you if you are in non D50 light. They are not suitable to determine if you have a good D50 simulator.
If you do not see or only barely visible differences it _could_ be that you have a good D50 simulation.
If you see big differences between the metameric pairs you definitely do not have a suitable D50 simulation.
The second application is what these strips are meant for, the first not.
Best regards
Claas
Am 18.11.2013 um 14:04 schrieb Mark Stegman <mark.stegman@gmail.com<mailto:mark.stegman@gmail.com>>:
Graeme, You are teasing us. Please elaborate. I had the same 'ambitions' as Axel but only mirrored his disappointment. What exactly is 'sufficient' to achieve a match with a metameric pair? If these things are so inadequate why does UGRA/FOGRA/GATF market them? Mark On 18/11/2013, at 11:32 PM, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com<mailto:graeme2@argyllcms.com>> wrote: Axel Robert wrote: Dear all, I experience some problems with different light indicators like : PANTONE® LIGHTING INDICATOR Stickers PIA/GATF RHEM Light Indicator Ugra/Fogra light indicator Those indicators seem incredibly vague in what they are supposed to do, and under what conditions they "work". The Pantone indicator talks about "being viewed under a 5000K (degrees Kelvin) standard light source.", and the others use similar terminology, but this is nonsense - such indicators depend on the colors being visual metamers under a certain light _spectrum_. Merely being the right color temperature is not sufficient to guarantee a match. Graeme Gill. Mark This email sent to mark.stegman@gmail.com<mailto:mark.stegman@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/lists%40bickeboeller... This email sent to lists@bickeboeller.name<mailto:lists@bickeboeller.name>
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Message: 6 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 11:45:10 -0700 From: Daniel Westcott <daniel@westcott.us<mailto:daniel@westcott.us>> To: lists@bickeboeller.name<mailto:lists@bickeboeller.name>, colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Light indicator band issues. Message-ID: <5jwmuus5uxoq9t3yyupigexf.1384800310066@email.android.com<mailto:5jwmuus5uxoq9t3yyupigexf.1384800310066@email.android.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I believe Graeme is eluding to the fact that color temperature does not speak to speak distribution; so while D50 is a standard with a specific distribution and as such has a color temperature, one cannot make the inference (as it seems the language on the pantone has done) that because the temperature is 5000K the spectral distribution has any specific character.
These test strips are useful to show clients when the lights in their office are inadequate for proofing purposes and can accomplish that task quite nicely. Most people do not understand that there is a difference but the seeming magic of these strips can quickly open the eyes of most clients as to why we insist on a light booth with a standardized light source for contact proofing.
Cheers Daniel
Perfect logic is meaningless without perfect perspective.
Daniel Westcott daniel@westcott.us<mailto:daniel@westcott.us>
-------- Original message -------- From: Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name<mailto:lists@bickeboeller.name>> Date: 11/18/2013 8:27 AM (GMT-07:00) To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Re: Light indicator band issues. Dear all,
these indicators are good tools to warn you if you are in non D50 light. They are not suitable to determine if you have a good D50 simulator.
If you do not see or only barely visible differences it _could_ be that you have a good D50 simulation.
If you see big differences between the metameric pairs you definitely do not have a suitable D50 simulation.
The second application is what these strips are meant for, the first not.
Best regards
Claas
Am 18.11.2013 um 14:04 schrieb Mark Stegman <mark.stegman@gmail.com<mailto:mark.stegman@gmail.com>>:
Graeme, You are teasing us. Please elaborate. I had the same 'ambitions' as Axel but only mirrored his disappointment. What exactly is 'sufficient' to achieve a match with a metameric pair? If these things are so inadequate why does UGRA/FOGRA/GATF market them? Mark On 18/11/2013, at 11:32 PM, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com<mailto:graeme2@argyllcms.com>> wrote: Axel Robert wrote: Dear all, I experience some problems with different light indicators like : PANTONE® LIGHTING INDICATOR Stickers PIA/GATF RHEM Light Indicator Ugra/Fogra light indicator Those indicators seem incredibly vague in what they are supposed to do, and under what conditions they "work". The Pantone indicator talks about "being viewed under a 5000K (degrees Kelvin) standard light source.", and the others use similar terminology, but this is nonsense - such indicators depend on the colors being visual metamers under a certain light _spectrum_. Merely being the right color temperature is not sufficient to guarantee a match. Graeme Gill. Mark This email sent to mark.stegman@gmail.com<mailto:mark.stegman@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/lists%40bickeboeller... This email sent to lists@bickeboeller.name<mailto:lists@bickeboeller.name>
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This email sent to daniel@westcott.us<mailto:daniel@westcott.us>
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