Hi Martin, The "issue" with F52 is the papertint. With F52 it is the first time that we are handling a reference characterization data set which is as far as -10b* from neutral. In fact, this papertint reflects quite well what we get from the many uncoated production substrates and prints, so this standard, describing a specific offset printing condition is really good... but: The issue is to be found in the typical handling of a white point in the ICC color workflow. The complete greybalance tips over to this very bluish paper tint and then the CMY-balance gets "out of order" to compensate accordingly. Maybe one of the ICC profiling solutions delivers some bette interpretation with the perceptual intent? With our attempt to keep a most consistent color appearance possible, we have developed our own gamut mapping. please find a little Lab-tif file showing a FOGRA39 to FOGRA52 conversion here: https://owncloud.gmgcolor.com/owncloud/index.php/s/OdMOCwwMz1PcQv8 If you open this in Photoshop, you can compare the image on the different Layers and you will see what a typical ICC conversion is doing, when you convert from F39 to F52, or what a GMG- DL-profile is doing. Our profiles can be used either in our ColorServer application or within our Photoshop-Plugin. Kind regards Juergen -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Colorsync-users [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+juergen.seitz=gmgcolor.com@lists.apple.com] Im Auftrag von colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com Gesendet: Samstag, 9. September 2017 16:53 An: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Betreff: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 14, Issue 36 Send Colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users@lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner@lists.apple.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Colorsync-users digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton) 2. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton) 3. RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Roger Breton) 4. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen) 5. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Graeme Gill) 6. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen) 7. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Graeme Gill) 8. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Martin Orpen) 9. Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] (Dan Bergstrom) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 15:31:40 -0400 From: "Roger Breton" <graxx@videotron.ca> To: "'Martin Orpen'" <martin@idea-digital.com>, "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <7858301d328d9$19748fc0$4c5daf40$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" How's the Perceptual Intent? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Colorsync-users [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Martin Orpen Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 1:04 PM To: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected]
On 4 Sep 2017, at 19:27, Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> wrote:
I’ve downloaded it and it works very well (and with the yellow as I’d expect from the 52 data).
Having taken a closer look, BasICColor Print is also producing poor relative intent separations from the 52 data. The neutral rendering is just as questionable as i1Profiler’s — the only difference being that X-Rite’s engine maintains the hideous blue blacks and BasICColor neutralises it. The magenta plummets by 30% between L31 & L28, while yellow climbs by 20% and cyan drops 6%. I’ve never seen results this bad from any other data set. It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx@videotron.ca ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:11:36 -0400 From: "Roger Breton" <graxx@videotron.ca> To: "'Martin Orpen'" <martin@idea-digital.com>, "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <78c9a01d328de$ae8419a0$0b8c4ce0$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Martin wrote :
It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI.
Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile? I suppose you long tried that option. / Roger ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 16:28:38 -0400 From: "Roger Breton" <graxx@videotron.ca> To: "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <78f8f01d328e1$0e8869d0$2b993d70$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Oops! Misread what Martin wrote.... What about using the same "tools" used by the ECI to generate their generic ICC profile? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Colorsync-users [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Roger Breton Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 4:12 PM To: 'Martin Orpen' <martin@idea-digital.com>; ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Martin wrote :
It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI.
Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile? I suppose you long tried that option. / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx@videotron.ca ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 21:39:15 +0100 From: Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <AAC48E54-AFB1-4331-9A16-DB91731F7C9A@idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 8 Sep 2017, at 20:31, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
How's the Perceptual Intent?
Smooth, but the blacks still don’t match. And, as the aim here is to generate profiles for black & white or critical neutral reproduction in CMYK, we don’t really need any proprietary perceptual voodoo. We need blacks that match.
It’s ridiculous having a *standard* that requires massive editing before repro houses can create an ICC profile that matches the generic profiles published by the ECI.
Doesn't the ECI site offers some kind of "standard" Fogra52 ICC profile? I suppose you long tried that option.
Yep, and that’s where the problem is. PSO Uncoated and whatever number of variants you want to produce yourself from the 47 data yield images that match *fairly* well. PSO Uncoated v3 and your custom ICC profiles made from the 52 data yield images that don’t match. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 09:08:04 +0200 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <4520dfb5-763a-f387-3d2a-e7f3fd6ad6ff@argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Martin Orpen wrote:
The Fogra 52 data produces neutrals composed of CMK and zero Y in both i1Profiler and Argyll.
I'm not seeing that (at least with my current code): colprof -v -qm -kx fogra52 icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc 100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000 [CMYK](clip) 50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.082952 0.039821 0.172167 0.656606 [CMYK] 40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.195334 0.103255 0.268755 0.778196 [CMYK] 30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.704504 0.399554 0.299435 0.917631 [CMYK] 20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716 [CMYK] 10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK] 0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000 [CMYK] colprof -v -qm -kz fogra52 icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc 100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000 [CMYK](clip) 50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.606688 0.510562 0.654812 0.000731 [CMYK] 40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.695956 0.650859 0.853761 0.179810 [CMYK] 30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.791740 0.543053 0.444419 0.844733 [CMYK] 20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716 [CMYK] 10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK] 0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000 [CMYK] what exactly are you looking for ? Cheers, Graeme Gill. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 12:15:53 +0100 From: Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <65DD99CB-90C3-4AC6-9CEB-26D8C7AC0CDB@idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On 9 Sep 2017, at 08:08, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
colprof -v -qm -kz fogra52
icclu -fb -ia fogra52.icc 100.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.007017 0.000764 0.081098 0.000000 [CMYK](clip) 50.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.606688 0.510562 0.654812 0.000731 [CMYK] 40.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.695956 0.650859 0.853761 0.179810 [CMYK] 30.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.791740 0.543053 0.444419 0.844733 [CMYK] 20.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.998257 0.923926 0.930881 0.996716 [CMYK] 10.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.994710 0.972349 0.899008 0.998990 [CMYK] 0.0 0.0 0.0 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.983620 1.000000 0.915429 1.000000 [CMYK]
what exactly are you looking for ?
Yellow in separations with increased K generation :) In profiles I made using Argyll in March this year I was getting this from -kx 300 TAC 60.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.042220 0.021155 0.138908 0.493434 [CMYK] 50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.082952 0.039821 0.172168 0.656604 [CMYK] 30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.703806 0.399562 0.299396 0.917587 [CMYK] 20.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.910211 0.696531 0.426875 0.996719 [CMYK] 10.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.932469 0.806219 0.293490 0.998988 [CMYK] 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.864791 0.135001 1.000000 [CMYK] But, more importantly, this is what you actually get from relative conversions: 50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.103877 0.046326 0.000000 0.712330 [CMYK] 30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.531888 0.077466 0.945821 [CMYK] 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.864791 0.135001 1.000000 [CMYK] And perceptual has NO yellow whatsoever! 50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.078745 0.037454 0.000000 0.635533 [CMYK] 30.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.265519 0.116809 0.000000 0.776893 [CMYK] 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 1.000000 0.549650 0.000000 0.922678 [CMYK] -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 15:57:15 +0200 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com >> ColorSync" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <0e66500b-08e9-be72-74bd-83befd7fd7e7@argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Martin Orpen wrote:
Yellow in separations with increased K generation :)
Why ? The nature of the device response is that you can either have lots of yellow or you can have the result being neutral. Take your pick. i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color. [ Perceptual response also depends to a degree on the source profile used. ] Cheers, Graeme Gill. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 15:35:29 +0100 From: Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <641CB64A-7671-4D76-BA09-616A7A8BADDB@idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 9 Sep 2017, at 14:57, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Martin Orpen wrote:
Yellow in separations with increased K generation :)
Why ?
The nature of the device response is that you can either have lots of yellow or you can have the result being neutral.
Take your pick.
i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color.
In print, the result doesn’t look neutral, or natural. If you make a high GCR custom profile from FOGRA52 and proof or print the results to compare them to images separate using PSO Uncoated v2 they do not match and will not get approved by a client. They are too blue. High GCR profiles using the FOGRA47 data work better than those made from 52. If the device demanded blue blacks, why doesn’t the ECI profile generate them? -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 14:52:18 +0000 From: Dan Bergstrom <DanBergstrom@primarycolor.com> To: Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: FOGRA52 & i1Profiler [subject corrected] Message-ID: <205D2B3C-C8A4-4E06-A8B7-615478A11E59@primarycolor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Yeah and low TAC will look thin (weak). Also you want each channel to have good shape. -- Dan Bergstrom | Color Technology and Quality | PRIMARY COLOR ORANGE COUNTY http://www.primarycolor.com | T 949 660 7080 C 949 616 4986
On Sep 9, 2017, at 7:35 AM, Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> wrote:
On 9 Sep 2017, at 14:57, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Martin Orpen wrote:
Yellow in separations with increased K generation :)
Why ?
The nature of the device response is that you can either have lots of yellow or you can have the result being neutral.
Take your pick.
i.e. the amount of yellow is correct to reproduce the desired color.
In print, the result doesn’t look neutral, or natural.
If you make a high GCR custom profile from FOGRA52 and proof or print the results to compare them to images separate using PSO Uncoated v2 they do not match and will not get approved by a client.
They are too blue.
High GCR profiles using the FOGRA47 data work better than those made from 52.
If the device demanded blue blacks, why doesn’t the ECI profile generate them?
-- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/danbergstrom%40prima...
This email sent to danbergstrom@primarycolor.com
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