Unsubscribe Please.Kim Kim LorangVisual Winds Studio Hours: Tuesday - Friday 10:30 - 5www.visualwinds.com -----------------------------------------From: colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Cc: Sent: Monday June 10 2019 3:00:01PM Subject: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 28 Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users@lists.apple.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit This email sent to rtelhan@icloud.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:08:07 +0000 From: Marcelo Copetti To: Refik Telhan , colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re[2]: Fogra 51 and 52 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Dear Refik Looks obvious that is an average of all measuments, correct? Only to have sure. Do you know what software package they used to it? Thank you Best regards Marcelo Copetti www.easycolor.com.br E-mail: marcelo@easycolor.com.br Cel: 41 9 9941-1740 - Whatsapp Cel: 71 9 9683-6873 - Whatsapp ------ Mensagem original ------ De: "Refik Telhan via colorsync-users" Para: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Enviado(s): 09/06/2019 23:30:12 Assunto: Re: Fogra 51 and 52
Dear Roger,
The following quotation is from Mr. Hanno Hoffstadt's mail dated 19.02.2019 which he had sent as part of the thread "[ECI-EN] Issues related with the switch from FOGRA39/47 to FOGRA51/52":
"The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6 printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact, spectrodens)..."
Best,
Refik
-------------------------------------------------------- Refik Telhan, EE B.Sc.
Light and Color Management Consultancy
Aydogdu Sokak 12A, Tarabya Mahallesi Sariyer, 34457, Istanbul, Turkey
Mobile: + (90) (532) 426 21 87 --------------------------------------------------------
On 09.06.2019 00:32, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton via colorsync-users" wrote:
Do we know what instrumentation was used to measure Fogra 51 and 52? Just "M1"?
Best / Roger
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This email sent to marcelo@easycolor.com.br
------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 09:45:32 -0400 From: graxx@videotron.ca To: 'Refik Telhan' , colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: RE: Fogra 51 and 52 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Rafik, At some point, I will buy the idea that "some" data had to be brought in to build the Fogra51 profile, and it only makes sense that the data was the result of averaging a number of measurements from popular M1 instruments such as the ones you (Hanno) enumerated below :
"The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6 printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact, spectrodens)..."
This development reminds me of the way the original SWOP TR-001:1995 dataset was arrived at, out of an average of 12 sheets, 4 measured by X-Rite, 4 measured by Kodak (not 100% sure?) and 4 measured by Gretag (SPM-100). It was an average of "selected sheets", ones that were closest in terms of SWOP's target solid ink densities and dot gain on Champion TextWeb #5 coated paper. Now, is Fogra51 a "straight" averaging of M1 measurements? It's possible that, through averaging, some of the "outliers" fall into place and the resulting data becomes "smoother", mathematically. It's very possible. In my own practice and those of many users I know, averaging a number of sheets helps catch the "centroid" of the system behavior. But it's possible and likely that the data was also smoothed on top of being averaged. *And* what I find more likely is that the averaged and smoothed data was also "edited" synthetically, using advanced tools, we, mere mortal color users don't have access to, in order to "align" with existing data for historical or other considerations. Yet, I gather that the data was extensively tested "visually" between participating proofing vendors and printers, and that "everyone" was satisfied with the results. (I got the points you raised on your reply on the ECI List and will go through them) I confess this is all speculations on my part as I did not participate in Fogra51 (I wish...) I have a link to a PDF which dokuments Fogra51 development but it is in German... (which makes me regret not having taking more than the first German language course during my undergraduate studies -- I did take three courses in Italian, though...) / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Refik Telhan Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2019 10:30 PM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Cc: graxx@videotron.ca Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52 Dear Roger, The following quotation is from Mr. Hanno Hoffstadt's mail dated 19.02.2019 which he had sent as part of the thread "[ECI-EN] Issues related with the switch from FOGRA39/47 to FOGRA51/52": "The original M1 measurement data for FOGRA51 (6 test prints, 6 printers, 4 papers; all measured by 4 devices - i1pro2, fd7, exact, spectrodens)..." Best, Refik -------------------------------------------------------- Refik Telhan, EE B.Sc. Light and Color Management Consultancy Aydogdu Sokak 12A, Tarabya Mahallesi Sariyer, 34457, Istanbul, Turkey Mobile: + (90) (532) 426 21 87 -------------------------------------------------------- On 09.06.2019 00:32, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton via colorsync-users" wrote: Do we know what instrumentation was used to measure Fogra 51 and 52? Just "M1"? Best / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/private/colorsync-users/attachments/20190610/57f9d38a/attachment-0001.bin> /> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 10:55:20 -0400 From: graxx@videotron.ca To: 'Martin Orpen' Cc: "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'" Subject: RE: Fogra 51 and 52 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Quick comment, Martin. On recent press calibrations, I noticed that Black ink is often quite warm, like b* = +4.00 to +5 and +6. But it has not been my personal experience that Black ink is "on the blue side"? I'll have to revisit some of my observations to double-check. / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Martin Orpen Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 10:52 AM To: graxx@videotron.ca Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52
On 10 Jun 2019, at 14:45, Roger Breton via colorsync-users wrote:
Yet, I gather that the data was extensively tested "visually" between participating proofing vendors and printers, and that "everyone" was satisfied with the results. (I got the points you raised on your reply on the ECI List and will go through them)
I’m not happy with the results. And I’m not happy with the changes that this has somehow caused to the older proofing standards like 39 and 47. It is now impossible to accurately proof anything composed predominantly of black ink. Black is now blue-shifted on proof. CMYK black and white images are a chilly blue black now — even in Fogra 39 — and look nothing like the printed result. We should have a competition to see how blue patch A18 from a Fogra 39 media wedge can be before it fails verification. I reckon you can hit b -4 and still get a pass on a Fogra proof. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:19:50 +0100 From: Martin Orpen To: graxx@videotron.ca Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" Subject: Re: Fogra 51 and 52 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On 10 Jun 2019, at 15:55, graxx@videotron.ca wrote:
On recent press calibrations, I noticed that Black ink is often quite warm, like b* = +4.00 to +5 and +6. But it has not been my personal experience that Black ink is "on the blue side"? I'll have to revisit some of my observations to double-check.
Roger That’s what we’d expect. Why our proofing systems are now generating — and happy to pass — 40% black tints with results like b -3.6 (on a substrate where b = -2) I have no idea? Never used to see this in the days before 51 & 52 turned the whole world blue. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd