Its me again, again Check out this page on my web site: http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk/wordpress/2012/02/the-power-of-grey-and-b lack/ Regards Paul Sherfield Please note my mobile is now my main contact number: Mobile: + 44 7899 906385 http://www.missinghorsecons.co.uk http://twitter.com/#!/missinghorse Apple Solutions Expert - Print & Publishing Member - UK TC130 Technical Advisory Group (ISO 12647 Printing Standards) UK Expert: ISO TC130/Working Group 13 on certification of printing standards Chair – BPIF UK ISO 12647 Certification Steering Group Lean and green? To save money and become a greener printer, see http://www.greenprinter.co.uk This email and any attachments may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of addressee. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, any disclosure, copying or other distribution is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete all copies from your system. Email may be susceptible to data corruption, interception and unauthorised amendment. We do not accept liability for any such corruption, interception or amendment or the consequences thereof. We do not accept liability for any action or inaction by the recipient as a result of advice or information contained within this email. -----Original Message----- From: <colorsync-users-bounces+paul=missinghorsecons.co.uk@lists.apple.com> on behalf of "colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com> Reply-To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Date: Friday, 12 February 2016 11:33 To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 13, Issue 36
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Today's Topics:
1. i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Martin Orpen) 2. Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Scott Martin) 3. Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Martin Orpen) 4. RE: Spectrolino repair (Roger Breton) 5. Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Terence Wyse) 6. Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation (Martin Orpen) 7. Re: Spectrolino repair (Graeme Gill) 8. Re: Spectrolino repair (Graeme Gill) 9. RE: Spectrolino repair (Roger Breton) 10. Re: Spectrolino repair (Graeme Gill) 11. RE: Spectrolino repair (Roger Breton) 12. RE: Spectrolino repair (Roger Breton)
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Message: 1 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:17:26 +0000 From: Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: i1 Profiler & Full black separation Message-ID: <E87BF3B6-3F99-40A4-ACE2-C384A67372BC@idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Question:
Is anybody using i1 Profiler’s "Full black separation” and sending the results to press?
The separations just look wrong to me :(
-- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 14:41:48 -0600 From: Scott Martin <scott@on-sight.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation Message-ID: <5A99DC52-7F80-4C54-ADB1-4F5EEB372CBF@on-sight.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I haven't used it on press but I use it on solvent printers where it's fantastic.
Scott Martin (from phone) www.on-sight.com
On Feb 11, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> wrote:
Question:
Is anybody using i1 Profiler’s "Full black separation” and sending the results to press?
The separations just look wrong to me :(
-- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
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This email sent to scott@on-sight.com
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Message: 3 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 21:18:01 +0000 From: Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation Message-ID: <ED54A126-0489-4DDB-BCAB-01BB9580FF8F@idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 11 Feb 2016, at 20:41, Scott Martin <scott@on-sight.com> wrote:
I haven't used it on press but I use it on solvent printers where it's fantastic.
The images I’ve been sent are for a world-wide magazine ad campaign.
If anybody is using these separations for that sort of work then I’d like to hear about it.
Just cannot believe they would work on web...
-- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
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Message: 4 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 17:14:32 -0500 From: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> To: "'Ray Cheydleur'" <RaymondCheydleur@xrite.com>, colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: RE: Spectrolino repair Message-ID: <004401d16519$95939540$c0babfc0$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
In other words, for "mere mortal", everyday process and most PANTONE ink colors, X-Rite's method would not be better suited than Graeme's or KM FD series or -- gasp! -- Techkon latest Spectrodens generation?
/ Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Ray Cheydleur Sent: 11 février 2016 08:46 To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com >> ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
Graeme is precisely correct, the KM FD series, i1 Pro2 and i1iSis 2 are using a modeling process (as does Argyle and i1Profilers OBA module), the eXact uses instead an approach using filtered Tungsten with additional sources in the UV to provide the spectral power distribution at the measurement plane. Either approach is completely valid for OBA’s as they are well studied and modeled. The issue comes when you look at other potential fluorescing agents. Then the model may, or very likely may not, perform as expected and thus the eXact is the better choice for these more complex situations.
RayC
Ray Cheydleur Printing and Imaging Product Portfolio Manager rcheydleur@xrite.com
Roger Breton wrote:
please forgive my technical ignorance but is there anything fundamentally wrong or flawed in the following approach :
It's a modeling approach, the same in principle as used by ArgyllCMS FWA compensation, and the i1pro2 M1/M2. You calibrate for the media's fluorescent response by measuring with the instrument light sources, and then use a model to predict how it will look under a real D50 spectrum.
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 17:20:58 -0500 From: Terence Wyse <wyseconsul@mac.com> To: Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> Cc: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation Message-ID: <EAA3E637-1FA2-40C8-9C6C-DF7F35E659BD@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I've used Full Black on press before......they'd better have their black dot gain under control or it will hurt you. 😉
Terry
Sent from my Terry Wyse's iPhone Excuse the brevity and typos
On Feb 11, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> wrote:
On 11 Feb 2016, at 20:41, Scott Martin <scott@on-sight.com> wrote:
I haven't used it on press but I use it on solvent printers where it's fantastic.
The images I’ve been sent are for a world-wide magazine ad campaign.
If anybody is using these separations for that sort of work then I’d like to hear about it.
Just cannot believe they would work on web...
-- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/wyseconsul%40mac. com
This email sent to wyseconsul@mac.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 23:11:08 +0000 From: Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: i1 Profiler & Full black separation Message-ID: <710EE347-813A-4010-B0B5-82C0756EFC14@idea-digital.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 11 Feb 2016, at 22:20, Terence Wyse <wyseconsul@mac.com> wrote:
I've used Full Black on press before......they'd better have their black dot gain under control or it will hurt you. 😉
Plenty of magazine printers can't handle the blacks in images with conventional, heavy or max GCR.
That i1 Profiler *feature* needs a warning…
Maybe that’s why X-Rite switch of the previews when you click that checkbox :)
-- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:50:08 +1100 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair Message-ID: <56BD1E30.2020001@argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Ray Cheydleur wrote:
The eXact uses instead an approach using filtered Tungsten with additional sources in the UV to provide the spectral power distribution at the measurement plane.
Thanks - so I'm guessing that the eXact has the ability to switch different filters into the illuminant path, one being a filter that (with help from the UV LED) simulates true D50 spectrum.
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:50:26 +1100 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair Message-ID: <56BD1E42.3040504@argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Roger Breton wrote:
In other words, for "mere mortal", everyday process and most PANTONE ink colors, X-Rite's method would not be better suited than Graeme's or KM FD series or -- gasp! -- Techkon latest Spectrodens generation?
I think it's a bit about the tolerances you are after. If you want very tight tolerances with a full range of substrates, then modelling approaches won't be quite as good. When things other than the substrate (i.e. the inks) are also fluorescent, then there is no simple alternative to using a real D50 instrument illuminant. [The complex alternative is a bi-spectral measurement, which will let you predict the appearance under any illuminant.]
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 9 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:26:09 -0500 From: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> To: graeme@argyllcms.com, "'ColorSync'" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Spectrolino repair Message-ID: <005d01d16534$5a107db0$0e317910$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Graeme,
Are you referring to ink fluorescing? In addition to fluorescence coming from the substrate?
/ Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Graeme Gill Sent: 11 février 2016 18:50 To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
Roger Breton wrote:
In other words, for "mere mortal", everyday process and most PANTONE ink colors, X-Rite's method would not be better suited than Graeme's or KM FD series or -- gasp! -- Techkon latest Spectrodens generation?
I think it's a bit about the tolerances you are after. If you want very tight tolerances with a full range of substrates, then modelling approaches won't be quite as good. When things other than the substrate (i.e. the inks) are also fluorescent, then there is no simple alternative to using a real D50 instrument illuminant. [The complex alternative is a bi-spectral measurement, which will let you predict the appearance under any illuminant.]
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 10 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 12:42:20 +1100 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair Message-ID: <56BD387C.8010001@argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Roger Breton wrote:
Are you referring to ink fluorescing? In addition to fluorescence coming from the substrate?
Yep. Fluorescent inks are vivid, but don't profile teribly well using instruments with an 'A' or white LED type illuminant.
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 11 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:55:08 -0500 From: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> To: graeme@argyllcms.com, "'ColorSync'" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Spectrolino repair Message-ID: <005e01d16538$66b4bd70$341e3850$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Graeme,
I've seen ink fluorescing on groundwood stock. Typically, it is yellow ink fluorescing because, I was told, because the pigment involved is diarilyde yellow #12 which is known to fluoresce when it comes in contact with fountain solution in the press. This is nothing new, to me, Graeme, and it never seemed to affect measurements?
On typical #5 grade coated stock, measuring an IT8.7/4 chart with UVcut filter ON and UVcut filter OFF turns out an average delta E of less than 1.00 with a max of 3.00 between the two sets of measurements. Hardly a problem in my view.
I agree, when I illuminate printed substrate with this ink, using strong 360nm UV illumination -- my faithful UVL-356 lamp --, I can clearly see patches containing yellow ink fluorescing. No doubt about that.
The same ink causes the same phenomenon on higher quality grades too.
Is that what you had in mind?
/ Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Graeme Gill Sent: 11 février 2016 20:42 To: ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
Roger Breton wrote:
Are you referring to ink fluorescing? In addition to fluorescence coming from the substrate?
Yep. Fluorescent inks are vivid, but don't profile teribly well using instruments with an 'A' or white LED type illuminant.
Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 12 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 06:34:49 -0500 From: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: RE: Spectrolino repair Message-ID: <00a001d16589$61bc7280$25355780$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
The way I understand the "problem", one light source is needed to cover the non-fluorescing part of the spectrum. That could be a white LED or a tungsten lamp. But, in my opinion, a second lamp is needed at 365nm to excite fluorescence from the substrate. Does ISO-13655 accurately describe this or does it only gloss over the detail of the required illumination, stating the general terms that it "ought" to be a D50-like SPD and leaving the details of the implementation to manufacturers?
I used a Techkon Spectrodens II that has M0, M1, M2 flavors. I used the i1pro2. I could be using an FD-xx. I could be using a Barbieri.
Presumably, none of the manufacturers quite use the same components and methods. Which is "best"? Newer characterization data all specify M1 but it's obvious that "M1" comes in many flavours.
/ Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Ray Cheydleur Sent: 11 février 2016 08:46 To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com >> ColorSync <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrolino repair
Graeme is precisely correct, the KM FD series, i1 Pro2 and i1iSis 2 are using a modeling process (as does Argyle and i1Profilers OBA module), the eXact uses instead an approach using filtered Tungsten with additional sources in the UV to provide the spectral power distribution at the measurement plane. Either approach is completely valid for OBA’s as they are well studied and modeled. The issue comes when you look at other potential fluorescing agents. Then the model may, or very likely may not, perform as expected and thus the eXact is the better choice for these more complex situations.
RayC
Ray Cheydleur Printing and Imaging Product Portfolio Manager rcheydleur@xrite.com
Roger Breton wrote:
please forgive my technical ignorance but is there anything fundamentally wrong or flawed in the following approach :
It's a modeling approach, the same in principle as used by ArgyllCMS FWA compensation, and the i1pro2 M1/M2. You calibrate for the media's fluorescent response by measuring with the instrument light sources, and then use a model to predict how it will look under a real D50 spectrum.
Graeme Gill.
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------------------------------
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