Windows RT display calibration and profiling
Now that the Surface is out and it's the same underlying color management structure as Win7 or Win8, except that x86 compiled applications will not run on RT, will be there be any offerings for RT, which will necessarily mean a recompile for ARM processors? Curious. / Roger
Roger Breton wrote:
Now that the Surface is out and it's the same underlying color management structure as Win7 or Win8, except that x86 compiled applications will not run on RT, will be there be any offerings for RT, which will necessarily mean a recompile for ARM processors?
It's not clear if there is any color management infra-structure on RT, just as there is none on iOS or Android. The assumption seems to be that hand held devices are for non-color critical applications. Graeme Gill.
Graeme, The color management infrastructure is the same as in the "regular" Windows. I have an RT tablet in my hand and the CMS Control Panel is identical to the one in Win7. Drivers are another issue altogether, I agree. Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Graeme Gill Sent: November-18-12 8:51 PM To: ColorSync Subject: Re: Windows RT display calibration and profiling Roger Breton wrote:
Now that the Surface is out and it's the same underlying color management structure as Win7 or Win8, except that x86 compiled applications will not run on RT, will be there be any offerings for RT, which will necessarily mean a recompile for ARM processors?
It's not clear if there is any color management infra-structure on RT, just as there is none on iOS or Android. The assumption seems to be that hand held devices are for non-color critical applications. Graeme Gill. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx@videotron.ca
Roger Breton wrote:
The color management infrastructure is the same as in the "regular" Windows. I have an RT tablet in my hand and the CMS Control Panel is identical to the one in Win7.
Be that as it may, the only 3rd party Apps allowed on RT are Metro apps, and they don't have access to the full win32 API. So it's not clear if an RT app can (for instance) open a PCI host port, or set a display calibration LUT or ICC profile. A quick search through the RT API revealed no such functions (but it's quite possible I missed something.) Graeme Gill.
I agree with Graeme on this issue. The use and control of application data on the mobile platforms is very different than in traditional OS situations. The available data for applications on the mobile platform is strictly "sand boxed" for security reasons, and writing of data for use by multiple applications or use by the OS is nearly impossible. Also, the hardware interface characteristics are very restrictive. A platform may have a USB interface, but it is often restricted to keyboard and mouse applications. Some of the platforms allow reading of data from a flash drive or writing to a flash drive, but the use of data from the flash drive is highly regulated. A good example of this is the image import kit for iPad. It is basically USB, but application support is limited to one or two apps and their data is basically available only to the application that imported the data. Regards, Tom On 11/18/12 10:40 PM, "Graeme Gill" <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Roger Breton wrote:
The color management infrastructure is the same as in the "regular" Windows. I have an RT tablet in my hand and the CMS Control Panel is identical to the one in Win7.
Be that as it may, the only 3rd party Apps allowed on RT are Metro apps, and they don't have access to the full win32 API. So it's not clear if an RT app can (for instance) open a PCI host port, or set a display calibration LUT or ICC profile.
A quick search through the RT API revealed no such functions (but it's quite possible I missed something.)
Graeme Gill. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/tlianza%40xrite.com
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There is an obvious security issue with global profiles, in that a global bad profile can lead to an unreadable screen. Think back to early Linux days and the problems we all had with X display drivers that left us with a borked black-screen system if we chose an unsupported resolution or our card firmware was the wrong version. For all the nuisance of the extreme lockdown, Apple and co deserve kudos for trying to make phones and pads unwreckable boxes that need no administration. One solution for global profiles might be single-boot profiles, ie. a profile is applied only until the device is rebooted. Another might be a core set of profiles for the essential system apps, thereby wiring in a safeguard. Another solution might be a form of profile which can be quickly sanity-checked before installation. I'm sure Tom with his vast experience and burning desire to see profiling extended to the industry has made numerous other suggestions and needs no input from unpaid helpers such as us. Edmund On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:26 PM, THOMAS A LIANZA <tlianza@xrite.com> wrote:
I agree with Graeme on this issue. The use and control of application data on the mobile platforms is very different than in traditional OS situations. The available data for applications on the mobile platform is strictly "sand boxed" for security reasons, and writing of data for use by multiple applications or use by the OS is nearly impossible. Also, the hardware interface characteristics are very restrictive. A platform may have a USB interface, but it is often restricted to keyboard and mouse applications. Some of the platforms allow reading of data from a flash drive or writing to a flash drive, but the use of data from the flash drive is highly regulated. A good example of this is the image import kit for iPad. It is basically USB, but application support is limited to one or two apps and their data is basically available only to the application that imported the data.
Regards, Tom
On 11/18/12 10:40 PM, "Graeme Gill" <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Roger Breton wrote:
The color management infrastructure is the same as in the "regular" Windows. I have an RT tablet in my hand and the CMS Control Panel is identical to the one in Win7.
Be that as it may, the only 3rd party Apps allowed on RT are Metro apps, and they don't have access to the full win32 API. So it's not clear if an RT app can (for instance) open a PCI host port, or set a display calibration LUT or ICC profile.
A quick search through the RT API revealed no such functions (but it's quite possible I missed something.)
Graeme Gill. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
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Hi Edmund, I will take all the input that I can get, even if it is dripping in sarcasm. My own thoughts on this matter are as follows: sRGB and Rec 709 share the same primaries and similar transfer functions. All modern scalars in phones have numeric pipelines that include a matrix shaper functionality. This allows the manufacturer to do a best fit to sRGB/Rec709, if they desire. The Apple Retina display is an excellent example of bringing color uniformity and near perfect conformance to sRGB into a wide range of mobile devices. I feel that this will be the baseline of performance for years to come, so I do not think that there is a huge market for profiling mobile displays, nor do I have burning desire to see profiling extended to mobile displays, in general. If you want to generate mobile content, generate in Rec709 or sRGB, do NOT embed a profile, and you will not be surprised by what you see on the mobile display. With respect to ³burning desires²: I awake each morning with burning desires, but display calibration of mobile devices does not remotely reach that list.... Regards, Tom On 11/19/12 10:28 AM, "edmund ronald" <edmundronald@gmail.com> wrote:
There is an obvious security issue with global profiles, in that a global bad profile can lead to an unreadable screen. Think back to early Linux days and the problems we all had with X display drivers that left us with a borked black-screen system if we chose an unsupported resolution or our card firmware was the wrong version.
For all the nuisance of the extreme lockdown, Apple and co deserve kudos for trying to make phones and pads unwreckable boxes that need no administration.
One solution for global profiles might be single-boot profiles, ie. a profile is applied only until the device is rebooted. Another might be a core set of profiles for the essential system apps, thereby wiring in a safeguard. Another solution might be a form of profile which can be quickly sanity-checked before installation. I'm sure Tom with his vast experience and burning desire to see profiling extended to the industry has made numerous other suggestions and needs no input from unpaid helpers such as us.
Edmund
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:26 PM, THOMAS A LIANZA <tlianza@xrite.com> wrote:
I agree with Graeme on this issue. The use and control of application data on the mobile platforms is very different than in traditional OS situations. The available data for applications on the mobile platform is strictly "sand boxed" for security reasons, and writing of data for use by multiple applications or use by the OS is nearly impossible. Also, the hardware interface characteristics are very restrictive. A platform may have a USB interface, but it is often restricted to keyboard and mouse applications. Some of the platforms allow reading of data from a flash drive or writing to a flash drive, but the use of data from the flash drive is highly regulated. A good example of this is the image import kit for iPad. It is basically USB, but application support is limited to one or two apps and their data is basically available only to the application that imported the data.
Regards, Tom
On 11/18/12 10:40 PM, "Graeme Gill" <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Roger Breton wrote:
The color management infrastructure is the same as in the "regular" Windows. I have an RT tablet in my hand and the CMS Control Panel is identical to the one in Win7.
Be that as it may, the only 3rd party Apps allowed on RT are Metro apps, and they don't have access to the full win32 API. So it's not clear if an RT app can (for instance) open a PCI host port, or set a display calibration LUT or ICC profile.
A quick search through the RT API revealed no such functions (but it's quite possible I missed something.)
Graeme Gill. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:57 PM, THOMAS A LIANZA <tlianza@xrite.com> wrote:
Hi Edmund,
The Apple Retina display is an excellent example of bringing color uniformity and near perfect conformance to sRGB into a wide range of mobile devices. I feel that this will be the baseline of performance for years to come
Regards, Tom
Hi Tom - So, after years of struggle we are finally achieving an all-sRGB model in at least one market? I would tend to agree with you that this is as Voltaire would say the best of all possible worlds. See, I didn't invent dripping sarcasm, I got taught it in school :) Edmund
edmund ronald wrote:
There is an obvious security issue with global profiles, in that a global bad profile can lead to an unreadable screen. Think back to early Linux days and the problems we all had with X display drivers that left us with a borked black-screen system if we chose an unsupported resolution or our card firmware was the wrong version.
There are multiple ways of users configuring their devices to be unusable, even on such locked down boxes. Switching to a foreign language and borking the WiFi/Wireless connection will do it. The idea of security being the reason behind iOS not having color management doesn't hold any water to me. A judgement call about the purpose of the platform and a desire to not complicate it too much - I can well imagine that as a reason. Graeme Gill.
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 10:29 PM, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
edmund ronald wrote:
There is an obvious security issue with global profiles, in that a global bad profile can lead to an unreadable screen. Think back to early Linux days and the problems we all had with X display drivers that left us with a borked black-screen system if we chose an unsupported resolution or our card firmware was the wrong version.
There are multiple ways of users configuring their devices to be unusable, even on such locked down boxes. Switching to a foreign language and borking the WiFi/Wireless connection will do it. The idea of security being the reason behind iOS not having color management doesn't hold any water to me. A judgement call about the purpose of the platform and a desire to not complicate it too much - I can well imagine that as a reason.
Graeme Gill.
if that were the case, one might reason the platform would not support per-application profiles, as is reported. but then who can guess what Apple "thinks"? If ever any company had MPD this it. Edmund
Things are very different on the WinPro tablet front because of the x86 genealogy. Earlier this week, I installed and ran BabelColor PatchTool and CT&A without a glitch on an ASUS eSlate tablet running Windows 8, successfully connecting to an EyeOnePro off one of the two standard built-in USB ports. Not bad for a "tablet". RT presents the same interface as the full Win8 but I realize any applications must come through the Microsoft Store. So driver design is the issue on RT? I have yet to measure the Surface display? It is possibly close to sRGB? I'll find out soon enough. But if I really need to, I think that I could always display a series of RGB colors, measure them, record their value and turn them into a standard ICC profile with some kind of profilers running off another machine. Then I guess I could just dump that profile into the standard Windows\...\color ICC profiles location on RT, select it as the monitor profile in Windows CM Control Panel and voilà! The interface is there? It lets me navigate to any directories on this system? So why wouldn't it work? For now, I don't have an application that could consume this profile that I'm aware of but I'm curious to test it. Does anyone know how good was Internet Explorer with Color Management? Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of THOMAS A LIANZA Sent: November-19-12 7:27 AM To: graeme@argyllcms.com; ColorSync Subject: Re: Windows RT display calibration and profiling I agree with Graeme on this issue. The use and control of application data on the mobile platforms is very different than in traditional OS situations. The available data for applications on the mobile platform is strictly "sand boxed" for security reasons, and writing of data for use by multiple applications or use by the OS is nearly impossible. Also, the hardware interface characteristics are very restrictive. A platform may have a USB interface, but it is often restricted to keyboard and mouse applications. Some of the platforms allow reading of data from a flash drive or writing to a flash drive, but the use of data from the flash drive is highly regulated. A good example of this is the image import kit for iPad. It is basically USB, but application support is limited to one or two apps and their data is basically available only to the application that imported the data. Regards, Tom On 11/18/12 10:40 PM, "Graeme Gill" <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Roger Breton wrote:
The color management infrastructure is the same as in the "regular" Windows. I have an RT tablet in my hand and the CMS Control Panel is identical to the one in Win7.
Be that as it may, the only 3rd party Apps allowed on RT are Metro apps, and they don't have access to the full win32 API. So it's not clear if an RT app can (for instance) open a PCI host port, or set a display calibration LUT or ICC profile.
A quick search through the RT API revealed no such functions (but it's quite possible I missed something.)
Graeme Gill. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
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If you want to see if a browser handles profiles properly go to Www.color.org Find the link on the right side of the page "Is your system v4 ready?" On that page there are pdf and html pages that will tell you how the browser is working. If you want a real kick, try printing each page to your favorite printer..... Regards, Tom On 11/19/12 8:49 PM, "Roger Breton" <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Things are very different on the WinPro tablet front because of the x86 genealogy. Earlier this week, I installed and ran BabelColor PatchTool and CT&A without a glitch on an ASUS eSlate tablet running Windows 8, successfully connecting to an EyeOnePro off one of the two standard built-in USB ports. Not bad for a "tablet".
RT presents the same interface as
the full Win8 but I realize any applications must come through the Microsoft Store.
So driver design is the issue on RT? I have yet to measure the
Surface display? It is possibly close to sRGB? I'll find out soon enough. But if I really need to, I think that I could always display a series of RGB colors, measure them, record their value and turn them into a standard ICC profile with some kind of profilers running off another machine. Then I guess I could just dump that profile into the standard Windows\...\color ICC profiles location on RT, select it as the monitor profile in Windows CM Control Panel and voilà!
The interface is there? It lets me navigate to any
directories on this system? So why wouldn't it work?
For now, I don't have an
application that could consume this profile that I'm aware of but I'm curious to test it.
Does anyone know how good was Internet Explorer with Color
Management?
Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From:
colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-u sers-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of THOMAS A LIANZA Sent: November-19-12 7:27 AM To: graeme@argyllcms.com; ColorSync Subject: Re: Windows RT display calibration and profiling
I agree
with Graeme on this issue. The use and control of application data on the mobile platforms is very different than in traditional OS situations. The available data for applications on the mobile platform is strictly "sand boxed" for security reasons, and writing of data for use by multiple applications or use by the OS is nearly impossible. Also, the hardware interface characteristics are very restrictive. A platform may have a USB interface, but it is often restricted to keyboard and mouse applications. Some of the platforms allow reading of data from a flash drive or writing to a flash drive, but the use of data from the flash drive is highly regulated. A good example of this is the image import kit for iPad. It is basically USB, but application support is limited to one or two apps and their data is basically available only to the application that imported the data.
Regards, Tom On 11/18/12 10:40 PM, "Graeme Gill"
<graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Roger Breton wrote:
The color management infrastructure is the same as in the "regular" Windows. I have an RT tablet in my hand and the CMS Control Panel is identical to the one in Win7.
Be that as it may, the only 3rd party Apps allowed on RT are Metro apps, and they don't have access to the full win32 API. So it's not clear if an RT app can (for instance) open a PCI host port, or set a display calibration LUT or ICC profile.
A quick search through the RT API revealed no such functions (but it's quite possible I missed something.)
Graeme Gill.
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Thank's Tom for the link. I'll be sure to visit it soon. As for printers, only printers are that "RT" compatible will work. Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Lianza [mailto:TLianza@xrite.com] Sent: November-19-12 11:19 PM To: Roger Breton; ColorSync Subject: Re: Windows RT display calibration and profiling If you want to see if a browser handles profiles properly go to Www.color.org Find the link on the right side of the page "Is your system v4 ready?" On that page there are pdf and html pages that will tell you how the browser is working. If you want a real kick, try printing each page to your favorite printer..... Regards, Tom On 11/19/12 8:49 PM, "Roger Breton" <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Things are very different on the WinPro tablet front because of the x86 genealogy. Earlier this week, I installed and ran BabelColor PatchTool and CT&A without a glitch on an ASUS eSlate tablet running Windows 8, successfully connecting to an EyeOnePro off one of the two standard built-in USB ports. Not bad for a "tablet".
RT presents the same interface as
the full Win8 but I realize any applications must come through the Microsoft Store.
So driver design is the issue on RT? I have yet to measure the
Surface display? It is possibly close to sRGB? I'll find out soon enough. But if I really need to, I think that I could always display a series of RGB colors, measure them, record their value and turn them into a standard ICC profile with some kind of profilers running off another machine. Then I guess I could just dump that profile into the standard Windows\...\color ICC profiles location on RT, select it as the monitor profile in Windows CM Control Panel and voilà!
The interface is there? It lets me navigate to any
directories on this system? So why wouldn't it work?
For now, I don't have an
application that could consume this profile that I'm aware of but I'm curious to test it.
Does anyone know how good was Internet Explorer with Color
Management?
Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From:
colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-u sers-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of THOMAS A LIANZA Sent: November-19-12 7:27 AM To: graeme@argyllcms.com; ColorSync Subject: Re: Windows RT display calibration and profiling
I agree
with Graeme on this issue. The use and control of application data on the mobile platforms is very different than in traditional OS situations. The available data for applications on the mobile platform is strictly "sand boxed" for security reasons, and writing of data for use by multiple applications or use by the OS is nearly impossible. Also, the hardware interface characteristics are very restrictive. A platform may have a USB interface, but it is often restricted to keyboard and mouse applications. Some of the platforms allow reading of data from a flash drive or writing to a flash drive, but the use of data from the flash drive is highly regulated. A good example of this is the image import kit for iPad. It is basically USB, but application support is limited to one or two apps and their data is basically available only to the application that imported the data.
Regards, Tom On 11/18/12 10:40 PM, "Graeme Gill"
<graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Roger Breton wrote:
The color management infrastructure is the same as in the "regular" Windows. I have an RT tablet in my hand and the CMS Control Panel is identical to the one in Win7.
Be that as it may, the only 3rd party Apps allowed on RT are Metro apps, and they don't have access to the full win32 API. So it's not clear if an RT app can (for instance) open a PCI host port, or set a display calibration LUT or ICC profile.
A quick search through the RT API revealed no such functions (but it's quite possible I missed something.)
Graeme Gill.
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Microsoft Surface RT measured by Minolta CS-200 @ full brightness W R G B K G64 G92 G128 G164 G224 CIE_X 141.77 51.77 53.29 28.82 0.36 7.25 15.33 30.70 53.06 106.22 CIE_Y 147.44 30.19 87.97 22.21 0.36 7.63 16.19 32.48 55.92 111.63 CIE_Z 161.75 4.64 14.41 134.10 0.42 7.86 16.95 32.73 56.97 115.26 CCT (K) 6457 - - - 6318 6147 6291 6083 6106 6155 λ (nm) 487.4 605.0 556.1 472.6 476.7 493.6 492.3 497.1 495.2 493.3 CIE_x 0.3139 0.5978 0.3423 0.1557 0.3173 0.3190 0.3163 0.3201 0.3197 0.3189 CIE_y 0.3272 0.3486 0.5651 0.1200 0.3173 0.3354 0.3340 0.3387 0.3370 0.3351 Roger Breton, 2012 December 2 Here are some useful measurements for those who would compare Microsoft Surface RT display to other displays and monitor specifications. Visually, the green appears quite like a typical green. The red seems a bit orangish, though? And the blue is a bit too bright to be useful and its CIE_y value is somewhat odd? The white is close to D65. The gray scale tracking seems pretty good. At 147 to 0.36 cd/m2, the contrast ratio is 408. Seems plenty. Could someone please estimate the Transfer Function from the above Luminances? I have included measurements for : RGB = White = 255,255,255; G224 = Gray224 = 224, 224, 224; G192 = Gray192 = 192,192,192; G164 = Gray164 = 164,154,164; G128 = Gray128 = 128,128,128; G92 = Gray92 = 92,92,92; G64 = Gray64 = 64,64,64; K = Black = 0,0,0. All measurements made normal to the screen, in full darkness, in the Photos app. RGB target created using Adobe Illustrator. “Active” ICC profile associated with the display is “sRGB” according to Windows Color Management Control Panel. Best / Roger Breton Hope the List Server supports HTML formatting L
So much for HTML formatting support... Microsoft Surface RT measured by Minolta CS-200 @ full brightness W R G B K G64 G92 G128 G164 G224 CIE_X 141.77 51.77 53.29 28.82 0.36 7.25 15.33 30.70 53.06 106.22 CIE_Y 147.44 30.19 87.97 22.21 0.36 7.63 16.19 32.48 55.92 111.63 CIE_Z 161.75 4.64 14.41 134.10 0.42 7.86 16.95 32.73 56.97 115.26 CCT (K) 6457 - - - 6318 6147 6291 6083 6106 6155 λ (nm) 487.4 605.0 556.1 472.6 476.7 493.6 492.3 497.1 495.2 493.3 CIE_x 0.3139 0.5978 0.3423 0.1557 0.3173 0.3190 0.3163 0.3201 0.3197 0.3189 CIE_y 0.3272 0.3486 0.5651 0.1200 0.3173 0.3354 0.3340 0.3387 0.3370 0.3351 Roger Breton, 2012 December 2
participants (5)
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edmund ronald
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Graeme Gill
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Roger Breton
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THOMAS A LIANZA
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Thomas Lianza