RE: perceptual differences in Lab deltaE
Andrew, I'll start "humble", I'm only interested at this point to tell what type of "information reduction" is at play between pixel values in a file and measured pixel values on screen. For sure, we all *know* it's not a 1:1 relationship. Like, this is crazy, but I confess I never stopped to think what happens in Photoshop when working in 16bit modes? Suppose my video card can only honor 8-bits: can you imagine the huge "reduction" going behind the scene between the image in the file and the image on screen? Now what happens in the case of a 10-bit video card scenario? Assuming a 10-bit capable display like your 271Q and my 271W, and Wire's UP2916? Surely the reduction must not never be as severe. But I'd like to know, quantitatively, what kind of "compression" are we talking about. For now, I'm only interested in looking at R=G=B values, that will give plenty of data to graph to play with. But I don't think I'll expand this to the whole 16.7 million (let alone 1.04 billion) colors. / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:25 PM To: Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: perceptual differences in Lab deltaE So if (ugh that be hard) you're going to use your 16 million color test file, what's going to happen if it's in Adobe RGB vs. sRGB vs. ProPhoto RGB vs. the gamut and calibration of your display? Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ <http://www.digitaldog.net/>
On Jan 7, 2020, at 1:21 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Ilah,
Glad you brought this up because that's exactly one my current "pet projects". My code is not finished yet but basically, I'm going to be sweeping the entire "1024" scale with my instrument, to determine, exactly, what is what. I'll be glad to report as soon as I'm done -- can't wait!
/ Roger
Whoops, Roger, this Dell a UP2516 not a 2916. I think it's interfaces support 10 bpc but MacOS doesn't drive it as such. I need to look into this. Per your query the low-order bits are truncated and the high order sent to your display. They're there internally and used to inform the least significant bit (LSB), Using image adjustments, the information in those hidden bits may be dragged up into the passband of your image or display (so to speak), where you can take advantage of whatever information is stored in them as part of the rendering. Photoshop calculates them. What do these offer? If you are coming from raw, you get access to latitude that would otherwise have been clipped to reach 8 bpc JPEG. In synthetic data and image adjustments, you get better control of quantization noise. As an aside, something I am coming to terms with is how display-centric our view of color is. The reason I got these WCG displays is I want to experiment with my presuppositions about the importance of color to image quality. I have come to a conclusion that I think may be generally interesting: sRGB will not produce a color that looks unnatural. Like if you could do anything you wanted with a format, and you were concerned about being able to render all common scenes faithfully, but also concerned about uncontrolled use creating freakish output, sRGB color limits are an excellent compromise of these concerns. WGC readily makes colors that are unnatural. In an increasingly hyper-real world of media and industrial objects, the time has certainly arrived for wider gamuts. And I experience my adaptation to color changing with ready access to WCG, My doctrinal axe to grind is that while sRGB (and 709) has a poor reputation of being an impoverished space, its design merits are underappreciated. It's very interesting to watch the consumer space adapt, with surprise that what seems to me to be unnaturally hot color is become part of a new generation's view of the world. On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 2:04 PM Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Andrew,
I'll start "humble", I'm only interested at this point to tell what type of "information reduction" is at play between pixel values in a file and measured pixel values on screen. For sure, we all *know* it's not a 1:1 relationship. Like, this is crazy, but I confess I never stopped to think what happens in Photoshop when working in 16bit modes? Suppose my video card can only honor 8-bits: can you imagine the huge "reduction" going behind the scene between the image in the file and the image on screen? Now what happens in the case of a 10-bit video card scenario? Assuming a 10-bit capable display like your 271Q and my 271W, and Wire's UP2916? Surely the reduction must not never be as severe. But I'd like to know, quantitatively, what kind of "compression" are we talking about. For now, I'm only interested in looking at R=G=B values, that will give plenty of data to graph to play with. But I don't think I'll expand this to the whole 16.7 million (let alone 1.04 billion) colors.
/ Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:25 PM To: Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: perceptual differences in Lab deltaE
So if (ugh that be hard) you're going to use your 16 million color test file, what's going to happen if it's in Adobe RGB vs. sRGB vs. ProPhoto RGB vs. the gamut and calibration of your display?
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ <http://www.digitaldog.net/>
On Jan 7, 2020, at 1:21 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Ilah,
Glad you brought this up because that's exactly one my current "pet projects". My code is not finished yet but basically, I'm going to be sweeping the entire "1024" scale with my instrument, to determine, exactly, what is what. I'll be glad to report as soon as I'm done -- can't wait!
/ Roger
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/wire%40lexiphanicism...
This email sent to wire@lexiphanicism.com
Went to shop for a replacement TV last week. The trend appears to be over the top color. Some of the brands/units that seemed more natural looked pretty wimpy by comparison. I’m torn on the decision for which to buy - natural or wow look at that! Henry Davis
On Jan 7, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Wire ~ via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote: <Snip>
. . . In an increasingly hyper-real world of media and industrial objects, the time has certainly arrived for wider gamuts. And I experience my adaptation to color changing with ready access to WCG, . . .
. . . It's very interesting to watch the consumer space adapt, with surprise that what seems to me to be unnaturally hot color is become part of a new generation's view of the world.
Henry, You can dial it back. Stores still promote them based on insane attention-grabbing gimmicks, but it's under your control. The challenge for you will be to understand the controls well enough to dial it in properly. Good news is however outrageous the trends, most sets have a way to do it. I spent a month trying to understand how a Playstation 3 hdmi connection relates to a Mac mini for a Panasonic projector. By the time the PS4 hit and the dead Panasonic had become a Sony, it all seemed to work together. You know how every remote control you have is a Universal Remote Control, yet none of them will control everything! And you're always looking for that other remote, and when the units get out of sync because the channel button on one causes the power to toggle on the other, then the universal power button turns some off and others on and then you have to find the one and put it back in sync, then a guest wants to watch a DVD and you can't figure out how get the disc player audio to work again.... ICC color management is like that, but 100 times worse On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:09 PM Henry Davis via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Went to shop for a replacement TV last week. The trend appears to be over the top color. Some of the brands/units that seemed more natural looked pretty wimpy by comparison. I’m torn on the decision for which to buy - natural or wow look at that!
Henry Davis
On Jan 7, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Wire ~ via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote: <Snip>
. . . In an increasingly hyper-real world of media and industrial objects, the time has certainly arrived for wider gamuts. And I experience my adaptation to color changing with ready access to WCG, . . .
. . . It's very interesting to watch the consumer space adapt, with surprise that what seems to me to be unnaturally hot color is become part of a new generation's view of the world.
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/wire%40lexiphanicism...
This email sent to wire@lexiphanicism.com
Roger, the UP2516D interfaces are indeed 10 bit with a 14-bit internal LUT. So back to interest in Dell's cal and 3rd party support. Eat that NEC. https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/da704af Appears ArgyllCMS has long supported 10-bit graphics. Modern OS will drive it as such, but I'm connecting via DVI-D to HDMI which is limited to 8 bpc. This old NVidia has HDMI and DP so there's a possibility that I can swap to DisplayPort and get 10 bits. Seems unneeded as 8 looks smooth, but a bit here, a bit there, pretty soon you're talking real bits. /wire On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:27 PM Wire ~ <wire@lexiphanicism.com> wrote:
Henry,
You can dial it back. Stores still promote them based on insane attention-grabbing gimmicks, but it's under your control.
The challenge for you will be to understand the controls well enough to dial it in properly. Good news is however outrageous the trends, most sets have a way to do it. I spent a month trying to understand how a Playstation 3 hdmi connection relates to a Mac mini for a Panasonic projector. By the time the PS4 hit and the dead Panasonic had become a Sony, it all seemed to work together.
You know how every remote control you have is a Universal Remote Control, yet none of them will control everything! And you're always looking for that other remote, and when the units get out of sync because the channel button on one causes the power to toggle on the other, then the universal power button turns some off and others on and then you have to find the one and put it back in sync, then a guest wants to watch a DVD and you can't figure out how get the disc player audio to work again.... ICC color management is like that, but 100 times worse
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:09 PM Henry Davis via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Went to shop for a replacement TV last week. The trend appears to be over the top color. Some of the brands/units that seemed more natural looked pretty wimpy by comparison. I’m torn on the decision for which to buy - natural or wow look at that!
Henry Davis
On Jan 7, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Wire ~ via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote: <Snip>
. . . In an increasingly hyper-real world of media and industrial objects, the time has certainly arrived for wider gamuts. And I experience my adaptation to color changing with ready access to WCG, . . .
. . . It's very interesting to watch the consumer space adapt, with surprise that what seems to me to be unnaturally hot color is become part of a new generation's view of the world.
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/wire%40lexiphanicism...
This email sent to wire@lexiphanicism.com
Roger, as you may be aware, that other guy may not; the bit depth of the panel is simply one attribute to a fully high bit display path. Yes, it's important. But the video card, the OS, the application and the panel all have to be high bit for a true high bit path. Photoshop and Lightroom support high bit video, later Mac OSs do as well (late to the party but there's support). Then there's the video card that may or may not be high bit. If not, there's going to be a high bit to 8-bit conversion which isn't ideal. How one hooks up the display affects this too. Best way to check, view this image, in Photoshop, at 100% zoom, should be utterly smooth: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s14f4w7dq85r7oo/10-bit-test-ramp.zip?dl=0 <https://www.dropbox.com/s/s14f4w7dq85r7oo/10-bit-test-ramp.zip?dl=0> As for a silly comment: "Eat that NEC", there's far, far more to a great color reference smart display system than the bit depth. We can go there if so desired. All bits are real. Not all comments about them are <g>. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ <http://www.digitaldog.net/>
participants (4)
-
Andrew Rodney
-
graxx＠videotron.ca
-
Henry Davis
-
Wire ~