re: Reading textile samples
Lorenzo Ridolfi wrote:
I need to profile a textile media for a large format printer
II have no specific experience with the instruments you mention, but I have worked with textiles. What differentiates textiles from most other media is their strong surface texture. The incident angle of the illumination can have a strong effect on the reading. For example, 45° illumination creates shadow areas behind each raised fiber which will be "seen" by a 0° sensor. Diffuse illumination may be useful to alleviate that problem. The above assumes that you are printing on fabric woven with a single weave - the usual case for printing. Dobby or Jacquard woven fabrics, which contain many different weaves, create a much larger set of problems... -- Garth Fletcher
Thank you! The exact fabric is not chosen yet. Do you have any recommendation? Besides the color fidelity, the only other requirement is that the fabric must roll and unroll easily. Best Regards, Lorenzo
On Mar 9, 2016, at 13:46, Garth Fletcher <garth@jacqcad.com> wrote:
Lorenzo Ridolfi wrote:
What differentiates textiles from most other media is their strong surface texture. The incident angle of the illumination can have a strong effect on the reading. For example, 45° illumination creates shadow areas behind each raised fiber which will be "seen" by a 0° sensor.
Diffuse illumination may be useful to alleviate that problem.
Dear Lorenzo, I totally agree with Garth. An instrument with a 45°:0° geometry is not the best way to measure textile samples for the reasons he mentioned. ——Disclaimer— I’m working for Konica Minolta and we are developing color management solutions ——Disclaimer end— We, our partners and also our customers get very good results when they do the profiling using our d:8° instrument CM-2600d automated on an xy-stage. „Very good“ for our customers means: a) Large color gamut b) Smooth gradations in separations c) Very low dEs when they reproduce a reference (such as a textile preproduction or a sample like a color fan) d) Very good correlation between measured dEs and visual perception -> They easily get a visual match between their print and the color fan for example e) They can simulate the color output of their textile printer using a regular inkjet proofing system So should you use the tools you have be aware that maybe you spend more money for materials for trial&error and reprints than you would for a solution that works right from the start. Should you want to have more details feel free to contact me off-list. Best regards Claas
Am 09.03.2016 um 17:53 schrieb Lorenzo Ridolfi <lorenzo@mail.com>:
Thank you! The exact fabric is not chosen yet. Do you have any recommendation?
Besides the color fidelity, the only other requirement is that the fabric must roll and unroll easily.
Best Regards, Lorenzo
On Mar 9, 2016, at 13:46, Garth Fletcher <garth@jacqcad.com> wrote:
Lorenzo Ridolfi wrote:
What differentiates textiles from most other media is their strong surface texture. The incident angle of the illumination can have a strong effect on the reading. For example, 45° illumination creates shadow areas behind each raised fiber which will be "seen" by a 0° sensor.
Diffuse illumination may be useful to alleviate that problem.
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Garth Fletcher wrote:
What differentiates textiles from most other media is their strong surface texture. The incident angle of the illumination can have a strong effect on the reading. For example, 45° illumination creates shadow areas behind each raised fiber which will be "seen" by a 0° sensor.
Which may be a good reason NOT to use the ColorMunki for the task. Unlike the i1Pro which illuminates from all sides, it only illuminates from one direction.
Diffuse illumination may be useful to alleviate that problem.
i.e. a sphere geometry instrument. But I think that almost all of them are spot measuring, so you would need an automated table to measure lots of patches. Maybe a Spectroscan with polarization filter fitted ? Graeme Gill.
As others and Graeme have pointed out, a spherical geometry device and/or using a large aperture is the optimum solution here. But given the requirement of using current equipment, you may be able to alleviate some of the issues by printing the same chart multiple times in different orientations (landscape, portrait), different order (random, etc) on the substrate and then average those measurements. Good luck, Rohit On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Garth Fletcher <garth@jacqcad.com> wrote:
Lorenzo Ridolfi wrote:
I need to profile a textile media for a large format printer
II have no specific experience with the instruments you mention, but I have worked with textiles.
What differentiates textiles from most other media is their strong surface texture. The incident angle of the illumination can have a strong effect on the reading. For example, 45° illumination creates shadow areas behind each raised fiber which will be "seen" by a 0° sensor.
Diffuse illumination may be useful to alleviate that problem.
The above assumes that you are printing on fabric woven with a single weave - the usual case for printing.
Dobby or Jacquard woven fabrics, which contain many different weaves, create a much larger set of problems... -- Garth Fletcher
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Sure! A tool like Basiccolor Improve or Colorlogic ANT can help in averaging, correcting and smoothing the measures. I’m planning to measure at least 4 times, each target rotated in 90 degrees. The customer didn’t choose the fabric yet. Would you guys point me examples of “paper-like” fabrics to make the color management job easier? Best Regards, Lorenzo
On Mar 10, 2016, at 2:29 PM, Rohit Patil <rohitpatil@alum.rit.edu> wrote:
As others and Graeme have pointed out, a spherical geometry device and/or using a large aperture is the optimum solution here.
But given the requirement of using current equipment, you may be able to alleviate some of the issues by printing the same chart multiple times in different orientations (landscape, portrait), different order (random, etc) on the substrate and then average those measurements.
Good luck,
Rohit
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Garth Fletcher <garth@jacqcad.com <mailto:garth@jacqcad.com>> wrote:
Lorenzo Ridolfi wrote:
I need to profile a textile media for a large format printer
II have no specific experience with the instruments you mention, but I have worked with textiles.
What differentiates textiles from most other media is their strong surface texture. The incident angle of the illumination can have a strong effect on the reading. For example, 45° illumination creates shadow areas behind each raised fiber which will be "seen" by a 0° sensor.
Diffuse illumination may be useful to alleviate that problem.
The above assumes that you are printing on fabric woven with a single weave - the usual case for printing.
Dobby or Jacquard woven fabrics, which contain many different weaves, create a much larger set of problems... -- Garth Fletcher
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Hi Rohit! One thing not mentioned thus far is to be aware of optical brighteners and potential for fluorescence in inks when printing on textile. Optical brighteners in textile can fluoresce well into the visible range of the spectrum. Additionally, they fluoresce differently than optical brighteners in paper. In this case the excitation illumination in the measuring device is important. Using a measurement device with a light source that spectrally approximates D50 (like the X-rite Exact or the Barbieri SpectroPad) might be important to ensure that you get measurements that are meaningful for color management purposes. Computational M1 measurements (like those of the i1 Pro2) may not be appropriate. Max Derhak (PhD) Principal Scientist ONYX Graphics, INC. 6915 High Tech Drive | Salt Lake City, UT, 84047 | USA DIR +1 801 984-5339 | www.onyxgfx.com -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+max.derhak=onyxgfx.com@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+max.derhak=onyxgfx.com@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Rohit Patil Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 12:29 PM Cc: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Reading textile samples As others and Graeme have pointed out, a spherical geometry device and/or using a large aperture is the optimum solution here. But given the requirement of using current equipment, you may be able to alleviate some of the issues by printing the same chart multiple times in different orientations (landscape, portrait), different order (random, etc) on the substrate and then average those measurements. Good luck, Rohit On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Garth Fletcher <garth@jacqcad.com> wrote:
Lorenzo Ridolfi wrote:
I need to profile a textile media for a large format printer
II have no specific experience with the instruments you mention, but I have worked with textiles.
What differentiates textiles from most other media is their strong surface texture. The incident angle of the illumination can have a strong effect on the reading. For example, 45° illumination creates shadow areas behind each raised fiber which will be "seen" by a 0° sensor.
Diffuse illumination may be useful to alleviate that problem.
The above assumes that you are printing on fabric woven with a single weave - the usual case for printing.
Dobby or Jacquard woven fabrics, which contain many different weaves, create a much larger set of problems... -- Garth Fletcher
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On Mar 11, 2016, at 8:58 AM, Max Derhak <Max.Derhak@onyxgfx.com> wrote:
Using a measurement device with a light source that spectrally approximates D50 (like the X-rite Exact or the Barbieri SpectroPad) might be important to ensure that you get measurements that are meaningful for color management purposes.
Only somewhat tangential...it's not hard to build an high-quality spectroscope that you can stick a camera behind, especially at the spectral resolutions of interest to graphic arts (typically 10nm, 3nm at most). And it's not that big a deal to turn a spectroscope with a camera into a spectrograph, and it's also not a big deal to turn a spectrograph into a spectrometer, maybe even a spectroradiometer. You can calibrate it against an existing instrument such as an i1 Pro...you get an additional step away from the factory device's calibration, but that's not likely to be a problem for graphic arts work. The only real challenge is to make everything yourself and put it all together. For a shop that specializes in something like fabric, the homebrew route might be a good option to consider. b&
participants (7)
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Ben Goren
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Claas Bickeböller
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Garth Fletcher
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Graeme Gill
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Lorenzo Ridolfi
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Max Derhak
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Rohit Patil