On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:11 PM, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
One has to wonder at times <g>
Now that's just a ridiculous statement, and putting quotes around yourself grinning does not make any funnier.
Martin’s statement that the fault is PMP profiles and they all exhibit this is nonsense however. As I stated, I’ve built hundreds of profiles with that product, for a lot of customers using all kinds of printers, operating systems, drivers etc. His simplistic and incorrect statement implies pretty strongly this is something that is anything but a rare condition. .
The problem here is that you have no idea who and who is not suffering from this problem. First of all, you need to have a certain combination of events to take place, which you would have to confirm are happening, then you would have to have your clients print out test prints and look for the phenomenon. I didn't notice it at first. It was only looking at prints at an odd angle that I happened to notice. It was very very faint and was there, but unless you printed on page sizes considerably larger than your image size, you would never see it. Remember, this happens only outside image area, and it was only going from Leopard to Snow Leopard that created the problem. If you print with minimal borders like a lot of people do, you'd never ever see the problem. Hell, I even delivered prints to people who never saw it but it was there, but because they weren't using anything out of the image area, it never mattered. Again, this has nothing at all to do with rendering intents, only with a specific combination of profile, Ps and OS.
Oh well. For the record, every person I know making prints on a Mac with the same setup and Gretag profiles has had the same issue.
And for the record, every customer I built profiles for didn’t. I’m not suggesting there isn’t some combo of bug that causes this. I’m suggesting that it is/was rare and to suggest GretagMacbeth/X-rite produced a product that caused this in mass, and just ignored it, that it was solely their doing doesn’t wash.
Hard to say where the problem lies, but the fact is, is that it didn't occur printing from CS5 and Leopard but showed up in Snow Leopard. It seems to point the finger in the direction of Apple, but it's never as easy as all that. There may be a whole host of other factors there that only the engineers know about. I know that I sent all the information I had including profiles to a support person at X-Rite, and they didn't even acknowledge my message. I will send all that I can to Steve Upton on Monday, if I have the time to gather it all. Peter Figen
On Jul 13, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Peter Figen wrote:
The problem here is that you have no idea who and who is not suffering from this problem.
I actually have a pretty good idea based on the number of profiles I’ve built with the product in question and the number of users working with them. But true, I don’t have all stat’s for all users, do you? Let’s look at this rationally. The idea that the vast majority of PMP users are suffering from this issue seems unrealistic when you consider the low noise from users complaining of this on this forum, LuLa (a site that has over a million unique hits a month), and a few of the other sites where ICC savvy users report problems. The facts are, I’ve personally built several hundred profiles over the years with the package, for a host of customers who haven’t reported this problem. We’ve seen a reply about the issue from someone who works at X-Rite posted in a logical, well thought out reply to Martin’s rant(s) that the sole cause is ProfileMaker Pro. Am I saying no one suffers this problem? Not at all. Am I suggesting the sole cause is a PMP profile? Yes, based on the above facts.
First of all, you need to have a certain combination of events to take place, which you would have to confirm are happening, then you would have to have your clients print out test prints and look for the phenomenon
I don’t disagree that is a possibility. I disagree that the sole cause is a ProfileMaker Pro profile as Martin seems so certain.
I didn't notice it at first.
One could suggest that is a telling statement. One could suggest the rest of the PMP user community isn’t noticing it, but I find that difficult to believe. We’re not talking about the audience for a $499 profile generation product.
It was only looking at prints at an odd angle that I happened to notice.
Some of us are using pretty complex and robust process control with our PMP profiles that this would show up in a second. I suggest you look at such solutions such as Maxwell or manual processes that would produce evidence of this minutes after measuring a process control target.
Remember, this happens only outside image area, and it was only going from Leopard to Snow Leopard that created the problem.
As discussed, that this is showing up outside the printable area is very telling. So are you saying that based on that fact, plus the two OSs you mention, that the SOLE cause is ProfileMaker Pro as Martin does?
Hard to say where the problem lies, but the fact is, is that it didn't occur printing from CS5 and Leopard but showed up in Snow Leopard.
It isn’t hard for Martin to say where the problem lies. That’s were we disagree. We are again in agreement and I said that in past posts. Please do not suggest I am claiming there is no problem. I’m not. I’m suggesting it is a rare issue, a combination of various pieces of software and that it is irresponsible to rant on this list that the sole cause is the profile.
I know that I sent all the information I had including profiles to a support person at X-Rite, and they didn't even acknowledge my message.
That *may* say as much about your influence within a company as it does about the lack of a response being evidence that their profile is the problem, as Martin states. Based on his last post to the list, it is not hard to understand why X-Rite would not reply to him. I and others here could tell you getting answers and support from X-Rite has never been an issue. What’s the old saying about attracting more files with honey than vinegar? When people make irresponsible accusations on a public forum towards a company, accusations which have little or no merit, it isn’t hard to understand why a company would blow you off.
I will send all that I can to Steve Upton on Monday, if I have the time to gather it all.
An excellent idea. Steve can certainly responsibly report what he finds. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
I can see that Photoshop CS5 is dumping PDFs in the spool queue that show a difference in colour between the white areas of the image and the non-printing areas!
Check the vector fill. What’s the color space? What should it be? Check this using a few differing applications. I think this might guide you into the right direction in terms of who’s at fault... Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
participants (2)
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Andrew Rodney
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Peter Figen