Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166
Hi Neil. I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles! Cheers David B. Miller On Aug 1, 2013, at 12:00 PM, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
From: Neil Steinberg <software@photowork.net> Subject: Epson 7900 and iMac Date: August 1, 2013 10:34:58 AM PDT To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com
I am having issues achieving color accuracy from files as viewed on an iMac 27" monitor and printed on an Epson 7900. I am running OS 10.7.5, and calibrate with a Spyder Pro 4 device. I am printing on Hahnemuhle papers using the ICC profiles provided by Hahnemuhle. I have tried printing using the Epson driver, ImagePrint RIP, and ColorBurst Overdrive RIP, all with varying results. When printing with the Epson driver, I allow Photoshop to control the printer, choose the appropriate profile and opt for Relative Colorimetric. Using either of the RIPs, I allow the software "printer" to control the output, also opting for Relative Colorimetric. (I have experimented with Perceptual, but this does not improve the output.) In the past I had superior results from an Apple cinema display, calibrated with an iOne device, and printing to an Epson 4000 using the same papers with appropriate profiles. As a check, to see if the Spyder device is defective, I have also tried calibrating using the Apple system display preferences, but do not see a radical difference. Any suggestions? Thanks for your help.
Neil Steinberg
David, I know some people who have waste their time trying to outperform SOME canned profiles. HP comes to mind. It's a complicated issue to be sure. It depends on a lot of factors. With some printers and some media and some drivers, I've seen canned profiles way outperform custom profiling. HP has really done some profiles right. Beats the shit of all my tools and instruments... Kindly / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Millers' Photography L.L.C. Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 10:37 PM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com List; Neil Steinberg Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166 Hi Neil. I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles! Cheers David B. Miller
I would recommend that you read my article on debugging inkjet printing. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/inkjet_debunk.shtml Edmund On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
David,
I know some people who have waste their time trying to outperform SOME canned profiles. HP comes to mind. It's a complicated issue to be sure. It depends on a lot of factors. With some printers and some media and some drivers, I've seen canned profiles way outperform custom profiling.
HP has really done some profiles right. Beats the shit of all my tools and instruments...
Kindly / Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Millers' Photography L.L.C. Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 10:37 PM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com List; Neil Steinberg Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166
Hi Neil.
I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles!
Cheers
David B. Miller
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Roger, Some profiles are non existent for what I print to. Well, maybe they are and I have not searched for them. Example would be the Arches cold press watercolor paper 140 gsm…. The notecard material I use for client's notecards. The Epson Signature Worthy Series marketed by Epson just might be what you mean. I use the Epson Pro 9900 printer and canned profiles are available. Still, I do my own .icc custom profiles for this serious of papers. I use two Moab watercolor papers, and there are canned profiles for them. And the Anasazi canvas. For these three substrates I do my own custom .icc profiles. i1Profiler with version "D" i1Pro spectrophotometer is used for profiling. Assuming with my non-color science background, these tools are the best I can do. I will appreciate any and all suggestions aimed at me! What tools and instruments are you using? David On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:47 AM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
David,
I know some people who have waste their time trying to outperform SOME canned profiles. HP comes to mind. It's a complicated issue to be sure. It depends on a lot of factors. With some printers and some media and some drivers, I've seen canned profiles way outperform custom profiling.
HP has really done some profiles right. Beats the shit of all my tools and instruments...
Kindly / Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Millers' Photography L.L.C. Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 10:37 PM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com List; Neil Steinberg Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166
Hi Neil.
I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles!
Cheers
David B. Miller
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagin...
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Roger, I want to add, the Epson Pro 9600 with MK, could not render or, if you will, express, the colors on Arches Cold Press watercolor paper 140 gsm, as does the Epson Pro 9900. What a tremendous difference. 9900 is nearly miraculous. Just my humble opinion. With the 9900 I have only used MK. Warm Regards, David On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:47 AM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
David,
I know some people who have waste their time trying to outperform SOME canned profiles. HP comes to mind. It's a complicated issue to be sure. It depends on a lot of factors. With some printers and some media and some drivers, I've seen canned profiles way outperform custom profiling.
HP has really done some profiles right. Beats the shit of all my tools and instruments...
Kindly / Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Millers' Photography L.L.C. Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 10:37 PM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com List; Neil Steinberg Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166
Hi Neil.
I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles!
Cheers
David B. Miller
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagin...
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On 3 Aug 2013, at 19:41, "Millers' Photography L.L.C." <digitalimaging@dnmillerphoto.com> wrote:
What a tremendous difference. 9900 is nearly miraculous.
It is an incredible printing device… Until you compare prints that you may have made on an Epson 10000 a decade ago and you realise that the Ultrachrome MK ink is a major step backwards in print quality. There is no *comparison* in fact. Any print that relies for its impact on dense, velvet blacks would look better printed on Epson's ancient ink jet tech than on any of its current range. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
Mark Bergsma of Bellingham, WA, still uses his Epson Pro 10000. I forwarded you comment to Mark. The issue with 10000 if I remember, is couldn't get reds. On Aug 3, 2013, at 1:26 PM, Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com> wrote:
On 3 Aug 2013, at 19:41, "Millers' Photography L.L.C." <digitalimaging@dnmillerphoto.com> wrote:
What a tremendous difference. 9900 is nearly miraculous.
It is an incredible printing device…
Until you compare prints that you may have made on an Epson 10000 a decade ago and you realise that the Ultrachrome MK ink is a major step backwards in print quality.
There is no *comparison* in fact.
Any print that relies for its impact on dense, velvet blacks would look better printed on Epson's ancient ink jet tech than on any of its current range.
-- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagin...
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On 08/03/2013 10:47 PM, Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center wrote:
Mark Bergsma of Bellingham, WA, still uses his Epson Pro 10000.
I forwarded you comment to Mark. The issue with 10000 if I remember, is couldn't get reds.
There is the Epson 10000CF with Epson's first pigment ink called Archival if I recall it correctly. That one could not make a good Dmax on matte papers and had a lousy gamut. Epson deliberately printed a poster for the Photokina 2002? in 1950's style to mask that low gamut. I had a 10000CF and loaded it with a third party pigment to get better results. The other one, the Epson 10000 with the dye inks could make a nice gamut and Dmax on any paper. But dye inks do not have longevity and are not stable (for proofing). On the HP Z3100-3200: HP has documents on the inks used with different media presets + the ink limits per media preset for the normal OEM driver. There are also documents which media presets to use for third party media. You can create a custom media preset based on an OEM one and make slight changes on the ink load + drying time etc. and then calibrate the third party paper + make the profile. Non-inkjet papers can be used as well, the Arches falls in that category I guess. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ has a map in the Files with several docs on the subject. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.
However, the 10600 (same printer) with the original Ultrachromes produced a beautifully saturated red for us that I was unable to equal with my ipf Canon using 12 inks. I fairness, the Canon has better gamut in other colors. -----Original Message----- From: Ernst Dinkla Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:25 PM To: Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center ; Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166 On 08/03/2013 10:47 PM, Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center wrote:
Mark Bergsma of Bellingham, WA, still uses his Epson Pro 10000.
I forwarded you comment to Mark. The issue with 10000 if I remember, is couldn't get reds.
There is the Epson 10000CF with Epson's first pigment ink called Archival if I recall it correctly. That one could not make a good Dmax on matte papers and had a lousy gamut. Epson deliberately printed a poster for the Photokina 2002? in 1950's style to mask that low gamut. I had a 10000CF and loaded it with a third party pigment to get better results. The other one, the Epson 10000 with the dye inks could make a nice gamut and Dmax on any paper. But dye inks do not have longevity and are not stable (for proofing). On the HP Z3100-3200: HP has documents on the inks used with different media presets + the ink limits per media preset for the normal OEM driver. There are also documents which media presets to use for third party media. You can create a custom media preset based on an OEM one and make slight changes on the ink load + drying time etc. and then calibrate the third party paper + make the profile. Non-inkjet papers can be used as well, the Arches falls in that category I guess. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ has a map in the Files with several docs on the subject. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/jc%40technicalphoto.... This email sent to jc@technicalphoto.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3209/6548 - Release Date: 08/03/13
On 3 Aug 2013, at 23:25, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@onsneteindhoven.nl> wrote:
On 08/03/2013 10:47 PM, Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center wrote:
Mark Bergsma of Bellingham, WA, still uses his Epson Pro 10000.
I forwarded you comment to Mark. The issue with 10000 if I remember, is couldn't get reds.
There is the Epson 10000CF with Epson's first pigment ink called Archival if I recall it correctly. That one could not make a good Dmax on matte papers and had a lousy gamut. Epson deliberately printed a poster for the Photokina 2002? in 1950's style to mask that low gamut. I had a 10000CF and loaded it with a third party pigment to get better results. The other one, the Epson 10000 with the dye inks could make a nice gamut and Dmax on any paper. But dye inks do not have longevity and are not stable (for proofing).
That was the beast that I used, the 10000, not the CF version as the gamut wasn't big enough. The black was incredible. It needed to be handled with care otherwise the larger picoliter K dots meant that you ended up with beautiful models with stubble instead of shading on their faces :-) We get a finer dot now and incredible advances in all areas of colour reproduction… apart from black density. In 2002 I made a series of prints on the 10000 for Nick Knight that were destined for the Yohji Yamamoto exhibition at La Masion Européenne de la Photographie in Paris. Big, black and red prints on Hahnemühle paper... that I cannot recreate -- even though I have the latest Epson technology and the finest hardware and software for measuring and manipulating colour! I think that it's depressing that work from more than a decade ago can't be improved upon. And *deeply* depressing that I can't even reproduce work that I was doing more than a decade ago :-(
On the HP Z3100-3200: HP has documents on the inks used with different media presets + the ink limits per media preset for the normal OEM driver. There are also documents which media presets to use for third party media. You can create a custom media preset based on an OEM one and make slight changes on the ink load + drying time etc. and then calibrate the third party paper + make the profile. Non-inkjet papers can be used as well, the Arches falls in that category I guess.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ has a map in the Files with several docs on the subject.
Thanks, I'll take a look. Regards -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
Still, the "blacks" (Dmax) are not as good as we would like and such matte and art papers. Best I've measured is D1.87 or so on Epson Hot Press. I use an Epson 7890. DAVID SCHARF PHOTOGRAPHY *DAVID SCHARF PHOTOGRAPHY* http://www.electronmicro.com On 8/3/13 11:41 AM, Millers' Photography L.L.C. wrote:
Roger,
I want to add, the Epson Pro 9600 with MK, could not render or, if you will, express, the colors on Arches Cold Press watercolor paper 140 gsm, as does the Epson Pro 9900. What a tremendous difference. 9900 is nearly miraculous. Just my humble opinion.
With the 9900 I have only used MK.
Warm Regards,
David
On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:47 AM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
David,
I know some people who have waste their time trying to outperform SOME canned profiles. HP comes to mind. It's a complicated issue to be sure. It depends on a lot of factors. With some printers and some media and some drivers, I've seen canned profiles way outperform custom profiling.
HP has really done some profiles right. Beats the shit of all my tools and instruments...
Kindly / Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Millers' Photography L.L.C. Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 10:37 PM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com List; Neil Steinberg Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166
Hi Neil.
I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles!
Cheers
David B. Miller
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagin...
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David, I assume you mean the signature worthy paper. What happens when you use the cold press? David David B Miller, Pharm. D. member Millers' Photography L.L.C. dba Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center Bellingham, WA www.spinnakerphotoimagingcenter.com 360 739 2826 On Aug 3, 2013, at 8:35 PM, David Scharf <dscharf2@roadrunner.com> wrote:
Still, the "blacks" (Dmax) are not as good as we would like and such matte and art papers. Best I've measured is D1.87 or so on Epson Hot Press. I use an Epson 7890.
DAVID SCHARF PHOTOGRAPHY
*DAVID SCHARF PHOTOGRAPHY*
On 8/3/13 11:41 AM, Millers' Photography L.L.C. wrote:
Roger,
I want to add, the Epson Pro 9600 with MK, could not render or, if you will, express, the colors on Arches Cold Press watercolor paper 140 gsm, as does the Epson Pro 9900. What a tremendous difference. 9900 is nearly miraculous. Just my humble opinion.
With the 9900 I have only used MK.
Warm Regards,
David
On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:47 AM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
David,
I know some people who have waste their time trying to outperform SOME canned profiles. HP comes to mind. It's a complicated issue to be sure. It depends on a lot of factors. With some printers and some media and some drivers, I've seen canned profiles way outperform custom profiling.
HP has really done some profiles right. Beats the shit of all my tools and instruments...
Kindly / Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Millers' Photography L.L.C. Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 10:37 PM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com List; Neil Steinberg Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166
Hi Neil.
I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles!
Cheers
David B. Miller
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagin...
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Hi David, The Cold press was a little less at around D1.84 or D1.85, if my memory serves me well. Exhibition Fiber paper was well over D2.?? (I would have to go look at my records in the lab), but I don't usually like the glare of glossy--it defines the surface and prevents the 3D effect you can get from a matte paper, for example--the effect of looking "into" the image, rather than at an image on the surface of a paper. This 3D effect works well with my images. I do actual 3D stereopairs too, but there's no paper specifically for that (even though there used to be a color transparency material, called Stereojet), but I digress. Regards, David DAVID SCHARF PHOTOGRAPHY http://www.electronmicro.com On 8/4/13 10:18 AM, Millers' Photography L.L.C. wrote:
David, I assume you mean the signature worthy paper. What happens when you use the cold press?
David
David B Miller, Pharm. D. member Millers' Photography L.L.C. dba Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center Bellingham, WA www.spinnakerphotoimagingcenter.com 360 739 2826
On Aug 3, 2013, at 8:35 PM, David Scharf <dscharf2@roadrunner.com> wrote:
Still, the "blacks" (Dmax) are not as good as we would like and such matte and art papers. Best I've measured is D1.87 or so on Epson Hot Press. I use an Epson 7890.
DAVID SCHARF PHOTOGRAPHY
*DAVID SCHARF PHOTOGRAPHY*
On 8/3/13 11:41 AM, Millers' Photography L.L.C. wrote:
Roger,
I want to add, the Epson Pro 9600 with MK, could not render or, if you will, express, the colors on Arches Cold Press watercolor paper 140 gsm, as does the Epson Pro 9900. What a tremendous difference. 9900 is nearly miraculous. Just my humble opinion.
With the 9900 I have only used MK.
Warm Regards,
David
On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:47 AM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
David,
I know some people who have waste their time trying to outperform SOME canned profiles. HP comes to mind. It's a complicated issue to be sure. It depends on a lot of factors. With some printers and some media and some drivers, I've seen canned profiles way outperform custom profiling.
HP has really done some profiles right. Beats the shit of all my tools and instruments...
Kindly / Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Millers' Photography L.L.C. Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 10:37 PM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com List; Neil Steinberg Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 10, Issue 166
Hi Neil.
I don't think what I am writing is part of your issue. I use custom .icc profiles I create on my own. I refuse to use canned profiles!
Cheers
David B. Miller
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/spinnakerphotoimagin...
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participants (8)
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David Scharf
-
edmund ronald
-
Ernst Dinkla
-
John Castronovo
-
Martin Orpen
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Millers' Photography L.L.C.
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Roger Breton
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Spinnaker Photo Imaging Center