Re: Multichannel profiles not working in Photoshop
Hi Tyler, As i am sure you are now aware, Photoshop is not the best platform to use Multichannel profiles. For one, it cannot properly softproof your resulting separation. All the same, please send the profile to me for analysis. I can have a look. I have an idea what it may be but I'll check first and let you know. Frankly, we work with software capable of creating and utilising Multichannel profiles and even Multichannel device links which is unique. I am curious to see how well i1Profiler handles this task. When and if you send me your data, would you kindly let me have your characterisation data and give me a brief outline of how you created the target and measured it etc... All the best Niall Coady MPX360 Ltd Global House 1 Ashley Avenue Epsom, Surrey KT18 5AD T 01372 253 180 D 01372 253 182 F 01372 253 181 M 07740 940459 W Http://www.mpx360.com Disclaimer This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of MPX360 Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient, you are advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify info@mpx360.com and remove it from your system On 21 Oct 2011, at 20:03, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:39:34 -0700 From: Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com> Subject: Photoshop CS5 and i1Publish multichannel profiles To: ColorSync Users Mailing List <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Message-ID: <4E9F89E6.1070008@tylerboley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Anyone with any clue about why Photoshop may be picky about some of these and not others would be very helpful.
I'm not sure anyone is really following my question. Forget I said anything about evaluating profiles. One again- why would Photoshop see some multicolor profiles and not others made with the exact same software, with all tag info showing in Colorthink the same, etc..? And what can I do about it? The hit and run answer from Chris Cox was they must be valid, and compliant... well, given they are all made the same as far as I can control (other than some GCR, TI, patch count settings) what else can I do? Anybody? This involves two new and expensive pieces of software that don't seem to be doing what they should, with no one able to supply any reasonable input to date, from either company or an independent expert. Thanks, Tyler Niall Coady wrote:
Hi Tyler,
As i am sure you are now aware, Photoshop is not the best platform to use Multichannel profiles. For one, it cannot properly softproof your resulting separation.
All the same, please send the profile to me for analysis. I can have a look. I have an idea what it may be but I'll check first and let you know.
Frankly, we work with software capable of creating and utilising Multichannel profiles and even Multichannel device links which is unique. I am curious to see how well i1Profiler handles this task. When and if you send me your data, would you kindly let me have your characterisation data and give me a brief outline of how you created the target and measured it etc...
All the best
Niall Coady MPX360 Ltd Global House 1 Ashley Avenue Epsom, Surrey KT18 5AD
T 01372 253 180 D 01372 253 182 F 01372 253 181 M 07740 940459
W Http://www.mpx360.com
Disclaimer
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On 21 Oct 2011, at 20:03, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:39:34 -0700 From: Tyler Boley<tyler@tylerboley.com> Subject: Photoshop CS5 and i1Publish multichannel profiles To: ColorSync Users Mailing List<colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Message-ID:<4E9F89E6.1070008@tylerboley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Anyone with any clue about why Photoshop may be picky about some of these and not others would be very helpful.
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Tyler Boley wrote:
One again- why would Photoshop see some multicolor profiles and not others made with the exact same software, with all tag info showing in Colorthink the same, etc..? And what can I do about it?
It may be unrelated, but apparently Photoshop runs some sanity checks on profiles before it will accept them. One is (something like) checking that device white maps to PCS white within a certain tolerance. So there is scope for the behavior of a profile being the cause of this. Graeme Gill.
Hi Tyler I am following your question and I may know what the problem is; however, I must confirm this before I provide a conclusion. Please understand that whilst it may seem straightforward to you, nobody out here (on the list) has seen your data. We have only heard your story. Therefore anything you are told will not be conclusive and therefore a waste of time. If you would like to get to the bottom of this then provide some data or examples for others to confirm or deny. I have offered to look at this myself, if you wish. Silly question really but have you sent your findings to Adobe support? Good luck in your quest (-; Niall Coady MPX360 Limited Global House 1 Ashley avenue Epsom, Surrey KT18 5AD T 01372 253 180 D 01372 253 182 M 07740 940459 W Http://www.mpx360.com Disclaimer This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of MPX360 Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient, you are advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify info@mpx360.com and remove it from your system On 22 Oct 2011, at 00:08, Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com> wrote:
I'm not sure anyone is really following my question. Forget I said anything about evaluating profiles. One again- why would Photoshop see some multicolor profiles and not others made with the exact same software, with all tag info showing in Colorthink the same, etc..? And what can I do about it? The hit and run answer from Chris Cox was they must be valid, and compliant... well, given they are all made the same as far as I can control (other than some GCR, TI, patch count settings) what else can I do? Anybody? This involves two new and expensive pieces of software that don't seem to be doing what they should, with no one able to supply any reasonable input to date, from either company or an independent expert. Thanks, Tyler
Niall Coady wrote:
Hi Tyler,
As i am sure you are now aware, Photoshop is not the best platform to use Multichannel profiles. For one, it cannot properly softproof your resulting separation.
All the same, please send the profile to me for analysis. I can have a look. I have an idea what it may be but I'll check first and let you know.
Frankly, we work with software capable of creating and utilising Multichannel profiles and even Multichannel device links which is unique. I am curious to see how well i1Profiler handles this task. When and if you send me your data, would you kindly let me have your characterisation data and give me a brief outline of how you created the target and measured it etc...
All the best
Niall Coady MPX360 Ltd Global House 1 Ashley Avenue Epsom, Surrey KT18 5AD
T 01372 253 180 D 01372 253 182 F 01372 253 181 M 07740 940459
W Http://www.mpx360.com
Disclaimer
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of MPX360 Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient, you are advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify info@mpx360.com and remove it from your system
On 21 Oct 2011, at 20:03, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:39:34 -0700 From: Tyler Boley<tyler@tylerboley.com> Subject: Photoshop CS5 and i1Publish multichannel profiles To: ColorSync Users Mailing List<colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Message-ID:<4E9F89E6.1070008@tylerboley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Anyone with any clue about why Photoshop may be picky about some of these and not others would be very helpful.
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my apologies for allowing such a lapse in the thread, real life occasionally beckons... I may have found the problem... but will supply some profiles for anyone who is interested. Roy Harrington wrote:
Tyler,
I think its likely the it's OSX that is rejecting the profile....
snip
Anyway a couple things you could try are: run ColorSyncUtility and Profile First Aid. Roy, interestingly the system sees or doesn't see the same profiles as PS, so you may be right about this... first aid didn't change things.
....Niall Coady wrote:
Hi Tyler
I am following your question and I may know what the problem is; however, I must confirm this before I provide a conclusion.
Please understand that whilst it may seem straightforward to you, nobody out here (on the list) has seen your data.
OK, so I now see that the profiles the system and Photoshop do not see are are larger in file size... over 11mb, and the profiles everyone is happy with are half that size. So, there was some settings difference in the build, must have been. Still, given all else is equal as far as I can tell, I'm thinking it's the size. Here is a link if you'd like to see some profiles- *http://tinyurl.com/6h3287k *There are two folders, one with 6 channel profiles Photoshop sees and will convert to, the other with some it will not see. One- MK_9900_1440_RagPhotographique310MEDIUM325_55DK.icc was made with ErgoSoft GPS profiler, all of those have always shown up in the convert to list, but again, they are also smaller files. I just picked some to to show the issue, whether or not the are great profiles was not the point.. also, the RIP sees and utilizes any and all of these with no problem. As a reminder about the initial issue- 6 channel profiles made by i1Publish- some can be seen by Photoshop and some can't. Initially I said all build settings were consistent, now I must conclude they were not given the files sizes. But that's probably just one setting- the table size, since all LUTs are showing as 16 bit. The exception is the GPS built profile... which I just tossed in for no great reason... So, unless anyone sees any other issue, I'm assuming now that the OS may have some kind of file size limit to profile recognition, and therefore will not make it available for recognition by Photoshop. Tyler
Hi, ColorSync can't open them up either, so it's definitely not a Photoshop only thing. The ones Photoshop likes can be viewed fine on ColorSync. Lee On 3 Nov 2011, at 23:37, Tyler Boley wrote:
my apologies for allowing such a lapse in the thread, real life occasionally beckons... I may have found the problem... but will supply some profiles for anyone who is interested.
Roy Harrington wrote:
Tyler,
I think its likely the it's OSX that is rejecting the profile....
snip
Anyway a couple things you could try are: run ColorSyncUtility and Profile First Aid. Roy, interestingly the system sees or doesn't see the same profiles as PS, so you may be right about this... first aid didn't change things.
....Niall Coady wrote:
Hi Tyler
I am following your question and I may know what the problem is; however, I must confirm this before I provide a conclusion.
Please understand that whilst it may seem straightforward to you, nobody out here (on the list) has seen your data.
OK, so I now see that the profiles the system and Photoshop do not see are are larger in file size... over 11mb, and the profiles everyone is happy with are half that size. So, there was some settings difference in the build, must have been. Still, given all else is equal as far as I can tell, I'm thinking it's the size. Here is a link if you'd like to see some profiles- *http://tinyurl.com/6h3287k *There are two folders, one with 6 channel profiles Photoshop sees and will convert to, the other with some it will not see. One- MK_9900_1440_RagPhotographique310MEDIUM325_55DK.icc was made with ErgoSoft GPS profiler, all of those have always shown up in the convert to list, but again, they are also smaller files. I just picked some to to show the issue, whether or not the are great profiles was not the point.. also, the RIP sees and utilizes any and all of these with no problem.
As a reminder about the initial issue- 6 channel profiles made by i1Publish- some can be seen by Photoshop and some can't. Initially I said all build settings were consistent, now I must conclude they were not given the files sizes. But that's probably just one setting- the table size, since all LUTs are showing as 16 bit. The exception is the GPS built profile... which I just tossed in for no great reason...
So, unless anyone sees any other issue, I'm assuming now that the OS may have some kind of file size limit to profile recognition, and therefore will not make it available for recognition by Photoshop.
Tyler
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I just built two more from the same data as the two that the OS doesn't like, but with medium table size settings instead of large, resulting in profiles 4.2 mb in size. The OS, then of course Photoshop, likes them fine... I have to conclude there is a profile file size limitation in OSX for recognition. Thanks all... now to get back to the profile issues I began with. Tyler Lee Badham wrote:
Hi,
ColorSync can't open them up either, so it's definitely not a Photoshop only thing. The ones Photoshop likes can be viewed fine on ColorSync.
Lee
On 3 Nov 2011, at 23:37, Tyler Boley wrote:
my apologies for allowing such a lapse in the thread, real life occasionally beckons... I may have found the problem... but will supply some profiles for anyone who is interested.
Roy Harrington wrote:
Tyler,
I think its likely the it's OSX that is rejecting the profile....
snip
Anyway a couple things you could try are: run ColorSyncUtility and Profile First Aid.
Roy, interestingly the system sees or doesn't see the same profiles as PS, so you may be right about this... first aid didn't change things.
....Niall Coady wrote:
Hi Tyler
I am following your question and I may know what the problem is; however, I must confirm this before I provide a conclusion.
Please understand that whilst it may seem straightforward to you, nobody out here (on the list) has seen your data.
OK, so I now see that the profiles the system and Photoshop do not see are are larger in file size... over 11mb, and the profiles everyone is happy with are half that size. So, there was some settings difference in the build, must have been. Still, given all else is equal as far as I can tell, I'm thinking it's the size. Here is a link if you'd like to see some profiles- *http://tinyurl.com/6h3287k *There are two folders, one with 6 channel profiles Photoshop sees and will convert to, the other with some it will not see. One- MK_9900_1440_RagPhotographique310MEDIUM325_55DK.icc was made with ErgoSoft GPS profiler, all of those have always shown up in the convert to list, but again, they are also smaller files. I just picked some to to show the issue, whether or not the are great profiles was not the point.. also, the RIP sees and utilizes any and all of these with no problem.
As a reminder about the initial issue- 6 channel profiles made by i1Publish- some can be seen by Photoshop and some can't. Initially I said all build settings were consistent, now I must conclude they were not given the files sizes. But that's probably just one setting- the table size, since all LUTs are showing as 16 bit. The exception is the GPS built profile... which I just tossed in for no great reason...
So, unless anyone sees any other issue, I'm assuming now that the OS may have some kind of file size limit to profile recognition, and therefore will not make it available for recognition by Photoshop.
Tyler
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Lee Badham
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At 11:12 AM -0700 11/4/11, Tyler Boley wrote:
I just built two more from the same data as the two that the OS doesn't like, but with medium table size settings instead of large, resulting in profiles 4.2 mb in size. The OS, then of course Photoshop, likes them fine... I have to conclude there is a profile file size limitation in OSX for recognition. Thanks all... now to get back to the profile issues I began with.
right. that's what it looks like to me too. The problem profiles are 6 channel with A2Bx LUT resolution of 9. So 9x9x9x9x9x9 = 531,441 entries. Those are pretty big LUTs but I'm not sure they're the biggest I've seen. The B2Ax LUTs are not likely the problem as they are 37x and one profile that Photoshop liked was 55x... ColorThink opened them fine but we don't use the ColorSync engine. (or ACE) So I think you've found a bug in Photoshop / ACE and perhaps ColorSync. Sounds like you should submit it to Adobe when you get a chance. regards, Steve --
Tyler, it's certain that this comes from OS X, maybe for secutity reasons that are not documented anywhere. First, the ColorSync profile iterate function, thats the function that makes a list of all installed profiles, fails on your specific profiles. It's quite certain that Photoshop uses that function to built the menu list, and the profile iterate function just excludes your profiles for no reason from the list. Tested here on an OS X 10.6.8 system. Second, it's unclear why ColorSync Utility refuses to open the profiles. There are error messages in the console log: 04.11.11 12:34:04 ColorSync Utility[662] initWithPath failed With my own code (doing the iteration not using ColorSync, but opening the profile using ColorSync), I can iterate AND open the profiles just fine. Regards Rolf Gierling ----------------------------------------------------- Multitools Dipl.-Ing. Rolf Gierling Colormanagement Development - Consulting - Distribution Alt-Haarener Straße 16 52080 Aachen Germany Tel. +49 (0) 2 41 / 4 01 25 79 Fax. +49 (0) 2 41 / 4 01 25 83 mail@multitools-online.de www.multitools-online.de Author of "Farbmanagement" 3rd Edition July 2006 mitp Verlag, Bonn ISBN 3-8266-1626-X
Tyler, I think its likely the it's OSX that is rejecting the profile. Under OSX the system registers and keeps track of all the ICCs. Programs i.e. PS go through a standard call to get all the profiles -- with OSX filtering out ones it doesn't like. This happened with some of my grayscale profiles. I believe new validation rules showed up in Snow Leopard. Anyway a couple things you could try are: run ColorSyncUtility and Profile First Aid. it may tell you why it doesn't like it. try the profile on a windows machine. Roy On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com> wrote:
I'm not sure anyone is really following my question. Forget I said anything about evaluating profiles. One again- why would Photoshop see some multicolor profiles and not others made with the exact same software, with all tag info showing in Colorthink the same, etc..? And what can I do about it? The hit and run answer from Chris Cox was they must be valid, and compliant... well, given they are all made the same as far as I can control (other than some GCR, TI, patch count settings) what else can I do? Anybody? This involves two new and expensive pieces of software that don't seem to be doing what they should, with no one able to supply any reasonable input to date, from either company or an independent expert. Thanks, Tyler
Niall Coady wrote:
Hi Tyler,
As i am sure you are now aware, Photoshop is not the best platform to use Multichannel profiles. For one, it cannot properly softproof your resulting separation.
All the same, please send the profile to me for analysis. I can have a look. I have an idea what it may be but I'll check first and let you know.
Frankly, we work with software capable of creating and utilising Multichannel profiles and even Multichannel device links which is unique. I am curious to see how well i1Profiler handles this task. When and if you send me your data, would you kindly let me have your characterisation data and give me a brief outline of how you created the target and measured it etc...
All the best
Niall Coady MPX360 Ltd Global House 1 Ashley Avenue Epsom, Surrey KT18 5AD
T 01372 253 180 D 01372 253 182 F 01372 253 181 M 07740 940459
W Http://www.mpx360.com
Disclaimer
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of MPX360 Ltd. If you are not the intended recipient, you are advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify info@mpx360.com and remove it from your system
On 21 Oct 2011, at 20:03, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:39:34 -0700 From: Tyler Boley<tyler@tylerboley.com> Subject: Photoshop CS5 and i1Publish multichannel profiles To: ColorSync Users Mailing List<colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Message-ID:<4E9F89E6.1070008@tylerboley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Anyone with any clue about why Photoshop may be picky about some of these and not others would be very helpful.
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participants (7)
-
Graeme Gill
-
Lee Badham
-
Niall Coady
-
Rolf Gierling
-
Roy Harrington
-
Steve Upton
-
Tyler Boley