Wire, Is this what you're looking for? https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoAteG-cIdVA_xRmmA?e=EgcKHL Opinion about balance between AdobeRGB and Display P3 in consumer gear? Honestly, I don't know. I don't know at what rate are wide-gamut monitor prices coming down? I'm not sure many "consumers" care all that much or are the least bit knowledgeable about the gamut of their displays? As far as Apple's products are concerned, it may give their engineers "good conscience" to know they are adopting a "new" standard for display, P3, but I suspect most buyers are not all that preoccupied and certainly wouldn't be swayed to buy an Apple product because of their "adoption" of P3. I read elsewhere that Microsoft's Surface Hub has P3 as its "native" space? As an experiment, I tried to set my PA271W in its native gamut, if only to measure the primaries, but I quickly reverted to sRGB emulation because the colors were too vivid? You mentioned NTSC and I was surprised to see how far it reaches into the greens, not so much into the blues but almost on the nose of the spectrum locus for the red primary. Quite a feat. Could it be that televisions were made with these primaries all the way back in the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Wire ~ via colorsync-users Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2019 9:49 AM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities Roger thanks (and Andrew) for looking that up and plotting. Would you replace previous NEC model plot with NTSC 1953 and post your graph over on the DisplayCal thread you recently commented... The graph clearly makes Vincent at DisplayCal's point about combined P3 / Adobe coverage possible with some new tech. And I think it will show that consumer displays (higher end) have finally arrived at the color spec laid down when ENIAC was the next big thing (figuratively haha) What are you opinions about the balance between Adobe RGB and Display P3 coverage in consumer gear? And challenges of wide-gamuts in general. I'm interested in your opinions as both what you think personally and your sense of industry trends. /wire On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:40 PM Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Thank you so much, Mr Rodney. Never knew why manufacturers could not publish this kind of data in their technical brochure.
A little graphing shows the improvements over the previous generation: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoAglHEpfO10xKmr_g?e=npCj5r
I can see they managed to get the red primary very close to the Cine-P3 red primary which, according to the P3 specs, is "made up of a 615nm monochromatic" source of light.
The green primary gives the impression that it is cleverly "sitting" between AdobeRGB's green primariy and Cine-P3's green primary.
The blue primary is also improved relative to the 271W.
I can't assess the black level, though. Being an OLED panel, it's supposed to have deeper black levels than an LCD panel.
I suppose you have a 10-bit end to end workflow?
May I ask the source of your numbers, Andrew? I1pro2? Multiprofiler? SpoectraView II? I found Multiprofiler numbers are very close to lab-grade instruments, at least in my experience.
Thank you so much for your help,
/ Roger www.graxx.ca
-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 9:13 PM To: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
Here's what I see on mine, (full gamut) in SpectraView Info window:
Red: 0.683, 0.311 Green: 0.217, 0.721 Blue: 0.153, 0.045 Source: Calibration Sensor.
Hope that's useful.
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
On Nov 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Would anyone have the 1931 CIE xy chromaticities of this monitor, by any chance? In its "Full", "Native" mode? It's not in the User Manual, it's not on NEC web site, it's not on some user review by PCMag or some other? It's probably shown on Multiprofiler but I don't have the version made for this monitor.
Curious to know how they can go about emulating both AdobeRGB and DCI-P3 at the same time.
Any help is appreciated / Roger
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Re graph, keep the new gen NEC in there, but leave out the old one to make the point that now commodities displays can do it all. Re NTSC 1953 and common TVs. No. I believe the need for bright tubes forced a tradeoff for much narrower gamut. And led to oddities like 9300K whitepoint in Japanese designs in 90s, where it was observed that super bright sets sold better in big box stores, and whiter-than-white was a selling point for all sorts of stuff. I think the NTSC 1953 definition is important because it would have been engineered to be a reasonable max for posterity. I can't support this with specific evidence, but my guess is because the medium was so new, yet the CIE had formalized all the science 20 years before, the designers would have made their cut based on a practical maximum for the future of the medium, tempered by what was known to be possible / useful, if not economical. Along the lines of Pointers Gamut. Now a lot of our visual world is synthetic, Marvel movies and such— society is ruled by TV and movies—so wacky wide gamuts are a big gimmick for UHD TV, which hopes to replace your life with a simulation, while cinema is tempered by a more practical reality of the best that film can do. Regarding how you personally cope with a big gamut display by simulating sRGB: somehow the promise of ICC was never fully baked into the desktop. You are doing Windows I assume. Apple now color manages the whole UI. As to disappoints of ICC, I think this is mostly, because it's not possible for the smaller gamut to simulate the bigger ones—natch—and the cost formula for commodities means most devices are smaller gamut. So what's the point of commodities ICC support again? While sRGB / 709 are clearly very practical fine standards for a variety of reasons, it's noticeable that some color was left on the table and now it can be claimed. Apple is changing this with their vertical integration. From display, through OS and into streaming. As to DCI vs UHD, Netflix is called "flix" i.e. movies—//whatever happened to WebTV?// Therefore Apple's doing a variant of DCI-P3 not BT.2020. Plus no one can do the 2020 spec as it's insane, and insanely not backwards compatible. My overall point is SMPTE figured gamut out during the onset of the cold war, and it's been engineering compromises (many) ever since. On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 8:37 AM <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Wire,
Is this what you're looking for? https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoAteG-cIdVA_xRmmA?e=EgcKHL
Opinion about balance between AdobeRGB and Display P3 in consumer gear? Honestly, I don't know. I don't know at what rate are wide-gamut monitor prices coming down? I'm not sure many "consumers" care all that much or are the least bit knowledgeable about the gamut of their displays? As far as Apple's products are concerned, it may give their engineers "good conscience" to know they are adopting a "new" standard for display, P3, but I suspect most buyers are not all that preoccupied and certainly wouldn't be swayed to buy an Apple product because of their "adoption" of P3. I read elsewhere that Microsoft's Surface Hub has P3 as its "native" space?
As an experiment, I tried to set my PA271W in its native gamut, if only to measure the primaries, but I quickly reverted to sRGB emulation because the colors were too vivid?
You mentioned NTSC and I was surprised to see how far it reaches into the greens, not so much into the blues but almost on the nose of the spectrum locus for the red primary. Quite a feat. Could it be that televisions were made with these primaries all the way back in the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s?
/ Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Wire ~ via colorsync-users Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2019 9:49 AM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
Roger thanks (and Andrew) for looking that up and plotting.
Would you replace previous NEC model plot with NTSC 1953 and post your graph over on the DisplayCal thread you recently commented... The graph clearly makes Vincent at DisplayCal's point about combined P3 / Adobe coverage possible with some new tech. And I think it will show that consumer displays (higher end) have finally arrived at the color spec laid down when ENIAC was the next big thing (figuratively haha)
What are you opinions about the balance between Adobe RGB and Display P3 coverage in consumer gear? And challenges of wide-gamuts in general. I'm interested in your opinions as both what you think personally and your sense of industry trends.
/wire
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:40 PM Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Thank you so much, Mr Rodney. Never knew why manufacturers could not publish this kind of data in their technical brochure.
A little graphing shows the improvements over the previous generation: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoAglHEpfO10xKmr_g?e=npCj5r
I can see they managed to get the red primary very close to the Cine-P3 red primary which, according to the P3 specs, is "made up of a 615nm monochromatic" source of light.
The green primary gives the impression that it is cleverly "sitting" between AdobeRGB's green primariy and Cine-P3's green primary.
The blue primary is also improved relative to the 271W.
I can't assess the black level, though. Being an OLED panel, it's supposed to have deeper black levels than an LCD panel.
I suppose you have a 10-bit end to end workflow?
May I ask the source of your numbers, Andrew? I1pro2? Multiprofiler? SpoectraView II? I found Multiprofiler numbers are very close to lab-grade instruments, at least in my experience.
Thank you so much for your help,
/ Roger www.graxx.ca
-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 9:13 PM To: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
Here's what I see on mine, (full gamut) in SpectraView Info window:
Red: 0.683, 0.311 Green: 0.217, 0.721 Blue: 0.153, 0.045 Source: Calibration Sensor.
Hope that's useful.
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
On Nov 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Would anyone have the 1931 CIE xy chromaticities of this monitor, by any chance? In its "Full", "Native" mode? It's not in the User Manual, it's not on NEC web site, it's not on some user review by PCMag or some other? It's probably shown on Multiprofiler but I don't have the version made for this monitor.
Curious to know how they can go about emulating both AdobeRGB and DCI-P3 at the same time.
Any help is appreciated / Roger
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Regarding NTSC phosphors: The original NTSC phosphors, developed by RCA and used in the 15GP22 CRT (15 inch OD, 12 inch picture), used the old P1 (oscilloscope / radar screen) green, and a non-sulfide blue. The non-sulfide blue was not as deep into the violet blue as desired, but the sulfide gave problems in manufacturing due to copper contamination turning it green. These phosphors were carried into the first 21 inch CRTs, but sometime soon after, the sulfide blue was introduced, moving the chromaticity to the vicinity of today's sRGB blue. The red went through various changes giving increased efficacy, but the unequal gun current ratios were still a problem, so RCA and others settled on the 9300K+27MPCD white point, which essentially meant a very cyan white. In the early 1960s, all-sulfide tubes were introduced, which used a high proportion of cadmium to obtain the red phosphor. Where the other reds that had been used were close to NTSC, the sulfide red was a bit more orange at low currents and considerably more orange in the highlights. The sulfide green was much yellower than P1, as seen in the sRGB spec. Some TV CRT makers included a bit of cadmium in the green sulfide phosphor as well, making it even yellower and cutting the cyan edge of the gamut even worse than sRGB. In the mid to late 60s rare-earth reds were introduced, making the gun currents closer to unity ratio, and returning the red chromaticity close to NTSC. This is the red you see in the sRGB spec. The cadmium was also dropped from the sulfide green due to environmental concerns (a combination of needing to eliminate cadmium from factory waste, and the high cost of doing so.) So, the SMPTE monitor specs, and European PAL system specs, ended up being essentially sRGB with minor differences, which were eventually settled as the sRGB/HDTV specs. Wayne -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+waynebretl=cox.net@lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Roger Breton via colorsync-users Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2019 9:37 AM To: 'Wire ~' <wire@lexiphanicism.com> Cc: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities Wire, Is this what you're looking for? https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoAteG-cIdVA_xRmmA?e=EgcKHL Opinion about balance between AdobeRGB and Display P3 in consumer gear? Honestly, I don't know. I don't know at what rate are wide-gamut monitor prices coming down? I'm not sure many "consumers" care all that much or are the least bit knowledgeable about the gamut of their displays? As far as Apple's products are concerned, it may give their engineers "good conscience" to know they are adopting a "new" standard for display, P3, but I suspect most buyers are not all that preoccupied and certainly wouldn't be swayed to buy an Apple product because of their "adoption" of P3. I read elsewhere that Microsoft's Surface Hub has P3 as its "native" space? As an experiment, I tried to set my PA271W in its native gamut, if only to measure the primaries, but I quickly reverted to sRGB emulation because the colors were too vivid? You mentioned NTSC and I was surprised to see how far it reaches into the greens, not so much into the blues but almost on the nose of the spectrum locus for the red primary. Quite a feat. Could it be that televisions were made with these primaries all the way back in the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s? / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com> On Behalf Of Wire ~ via colorsync-users Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2019 9:49 AM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities Roger thanks (and Andrew) for looking that up and plotting. Would you replace previous NEC model plot with NTSC 1953 and post your graph over on the DisplayCal thread you recently commented... The graph clearly makes Vincent at DisplayCal's point about combined P3 / Adobe coverage possible with some new tech. And I think it will show that consumer displays (higher end) have finally arrived at the color spec laid down when ENIAC was the next big thing (figuratively haha) What are you opinions about the balance between Adobe RGB and Display P3 coverage in consumer gear? And challenges of wide-gamuts in general. I'm interested in your opinions as both what you think personally and your sense of industry trends. /wire On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:40 PM Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Thank you so much, Mr Rodney. Never knew why manufacturers could not publish this kind of data in their technical brochure.
A little graphing shows the improvements over the previous generation: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoAglHEpfO10xKmr_g?e=npCj5r
I can see they managed to get the red primary very close to the Cine-P3 red primary which, according to the P3 specs, is "made up of a 615nm monochromatic" source of light.
The green primary gives the impression that it is cleverly "sitting" between AdobeRGB's green primariy and Cine-P3's green primary.
The blue primary is also improved relative to the 271W.
I can't assess the black level, though. Being an OLED panel, it's supposed to have deeper black levels than an LCD panel.
I suppose you have a 10-bit end to end workflow?
May I ask the source of your numbers, Andrew? I1pro2? Multiprofiler? SpoectraView II? I found Multiprofiler numbers are very close to lab-grade instruments, at least in my experience.
Thank you so much for your help,
/ Roger www.graxx.ca
-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 9:13 PM To: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
Here's what I see on mine, (full gamut) in SpectraView Info window:
Red: 0.683, 0.311 Green: 0.217, 0.721 Blue: 0.153, 0.045 Source: Calibration Sensor.
Hope that's useful.
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
On Nov 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Would anyone have the 1931 CIE xy chromaticities of this monitor, by any chance? In its "Full", "Native" mode? It's not in the User Manual, it's not on NEC web site, it's not on some user review by PCMag or some other? It's probably shown on Multiprofiler but I don't have the version made for this monitor.
Curious to know how they can go about emulating both AdobeRGB and DCI-P3 at the same time.
Any help is appreciated / Roger
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https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/wire%40lexipha nicism.com
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graxx＠videotron.ca
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Wayne Bretl
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Wire ~