"It might be the model mentioned was "Philips TL-D-90" "
We have these ( http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/lamps/fluorescent-lamps/tl5/master-tl... ) ...horrible. Their 65k cousins were probably spectrally better, but visibly blue to our eyes. These are green (though they do read bang on 5000k on the spectro). And spiky compared to the Just Normlicht tubes in our view booth. Rob. _________________________________________
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2012 08:27:05 +0100 From: Dan Wilson <dan.wilson@prepress-it.com> To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: RE: "Hardware Store Tubes" Message-ID: <CF7258FD-98A8-4123-898E-12D0E0D4A91E@prepress-it.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hello Eric,
Thanks for your reply.
Of course I am familiar with the new revision of 3664, it was a hasty email on Friday afternoon and I should have offered more details to be clearer.
I am interested in 'Hardware Store Tubes' not so much for critical viewing but rather to use in a factory nearby presses and other areas where colour critical appraisal will be conducted.
At a plant last week i used Babel's CT&A to show a customer lights on all their presses needed updating. Around the press area all the 'industrial tubes' are old and yellow and I was able to measure them and deduce these tubes were in fact >influencing the results on the press console.
I thought if there was a off the shelf tube at a reasonable price, which does not too badly influencing the critical viewing area, it would make sense to use these tubes in the areas surrounding the presses.
It might be the model mentioned was "Philips TL-D-90"
Anyone using a specific specification for around the presses, but not critical viewing?
Regards,
Dan
On Monday, August 6, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Robert Crow wrote:
"It might be the model mentioned was "Philips TL-D-90" "
We have these ( http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/lamps/fluorescent-lamps/tl5/master-tl... )
...horrible.
Their 65k cousins were probably spectrally better, but visibly blue to our eyes. These are green (though they do read bang on 5000k on the spectro). And spiky compared to the Just Normlicht tubes in our view booth.
Rob.
I've been doing a fair bit of measuring of lightubes (I can recommend Babelcolor CT&A and an Eye One pro for this - even though strictly the Spectral resolution of the eye one isn't enough to comply with 3664). If you want Phillips tubes you want Master TL-D 90 Graphica and these do work well in graphical arts environments - provided your casing doesn't change the color of the light. I've linked to a report on a newly installed set of these tubes at a customer site for those interested below. Phillips_TLD90_Graphica.pdf (http://db.tt/Wx6Pu7YL) I would personally recommend GretagMacbeth tubes (from prooflite D50) as generally these is a tad batter, and priced about the same generally. Comes in an 8-pack though. GretagMacbeth Prooflight 8tube report ISO 3664+.pdf (http://db.tt/uNnuhoo5) Best regards Thomas Holm · Color Management & Workflow Consultant · UGRA PSO Certified Expert (Process Standard Offset) · IDEAlliance G7 Certified Expert · FTA Certified First 4.0 Flexo Implementation Specialist Pixl Aps Bispevej 25, 2. sal DK-2400 København NV Tlf: +45 3296 9014 · www.pixl.dk (http://www.pixl.dk) Tilmeld dig til Pixl nyhedsbrev (https://pixl-aps.clients.ubivox.com/forms/subscribe/list/1269/)
Thanks for the reports Thomas. Interesting. We have some 8-tube Prooflights and I agree they are very good. Unfortunately we also have over 300 TL-5 type fittings to fill! So like the OP, I was looking for a cheap but 'ok' tube (and I'm limited by the fitting size). I note your point about the cast from the fitting. It is worth further investigation. I thought perhaps some old fashioned CC filters to knock back the green spike would improve things? That's how we used to shoot daylight colour transparency film under fluorescent tubes, pre-digital. Best regards, Rob ________________________________________ From: pixl Aps [pixlaps@gmail.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 17:44 To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Cc: Robert Crow Subject: Re: "Hardware Store Tubes" On Monday, August 6, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Robert Crow wrote: "It might be the model mentioned was "Philips TL-D-90" " We have these ( http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/lamps/fluorescent-lamps/tl5/master-tl... ) ...horrible. Their 65k cousins were probably spectrally better, but visibly blue to our eyes. These are green (though they do read bang on 5000k on the spectro). And spiky compared to the Just Normlicht tubes in our view booth. Rob. I've been doing a fair bit of measuring of lightubes (I can recommend Babelcolor CT&A and an Eye One pro for this - even though strictly the Spectral resolution of the eye one isn't enough to comply with 3664). If you want Phillips tubes you want Master TL-D 90 Graphica and these do work well in graphical arts environments - provided your casing doesn't change the color of the light. I've linked to a report on a newly installed set of these tubes at a customer site for those interested below. Phillips_TLD90_Graphica.pdf<http://db.tt/Wx6Pu7YL> I would personally recommend GretagMacbeth tubes (from prooflite D50) as generally these is a tad batter, and priced about the same generally. Comes in an 8-pack though. GretagMacbeth Prooflight 8tube report ISO 3664+.pdf<http://db.tt/uNnuhoo5> Best regards Thomas Holm · Color Management & Workflow Consultant · UGRA PSO Certified Expert (Process Standard Offset) · IDEAlliance G7 Certified Expert · FTA Certified First 4.0 Flexo Implementation Specialist Pixl Aps Bispevej 25, 2. sal DK-2400 København NV Tlf: +45 3296 9014 · www.pixl.dk<http://www.pixl.dk> Tilmeld dig til Pixl nyhedsbrev<https://pixl-aps.clients.ubivox.com/forms/subscribe/list/1269/>
CC filters are worth trying IMO. Nothing wrong with being scientifically creative :-) / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Robert Crow Sent: August-07-12 5:01 AM To: pixl Aps; colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: RE: "Hardware Store Tubes" Thanks for the reports Thomas. Interesting. We have some 8-tube Prooflights and I agree they are very good. Unfortunately we also have over 300 TL-5 type fittings to fill! So like the OP, I was looking for a cheap but 'ok' tube (and I'm limited by the fitting size). I note your point about the cast from the fitting. It is worth further investigation. I thought perhaps some old fashioned CC filters to knock back the green spike would improve things? That's how we used to shoot daylight colour transparency film under fluorescent tubes, pre-digital. Best regards, Rob ________________________________________ From: pixl Aps [pixlaps@gmail.com] Sent: 06 August 2012 17:44 To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Cc: Robert Crow Subject: Re: "Hardware Store Tubes" On Monday, August 6, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Robert Crow wrote: "It might be the model mentioned was "Philips TL-D-90" " We have these ( http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/lamps/fluorescent-lamps/tl5/master-tl... ) ...horrible. Their 65k cousins were probably spectrally better, but visibly blue to our eyes. These are green (though they do read bang on 5000k on the spectro). And spiky compared to the Just Normlicht tubes in our view booth. Rob. I've been doing a fair bit of measuring of lightubes (I can recommend Babelcolor CT&A and an Eye One pro for this - even though strictly the Spectral resolution of the eye one isn't enough to comply with 3664). If you want Phillips tubes you want Master TL-D 90 Graphica and these do work well in graphical arts environments - provided your casing doesn't change the color of the light. I've linked to a report on a newly installed set of these tubes at a customer site for those interested below. Phillips_TLD90_Graphica.pdf<http://db.tt/Wx6Pu7YL> I would personally recommend GretagMacbeth tubes (from prooflite D50) as generally these is a tad batter, and priced about the same generally. Comes in an 8-pack though. GretagMacbeth Prooflight 8tube report ISO 3664+.pdf<http://db.tt/uNnuhoo5> Best regards Thomas Holm · Color Management & Workflow Consultant · UGRA PSO Certified Expert (Process Standard Offset) · IDEAlliance G7 Certified Expert · FTA Certified First 4.0 Flexo Implementation Specialist Pixl Aps Bispevej 25, 2. sal DK-2400 København NV Tlf: +45 3296 9014 · www.pixl.dk<http://www.pixl.dk> Tilmeld dig til Pixl nyhedsbrev<https://pixl-aps.clients.ubivox.com/forms/subscribe/list/1269/> _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx@videotron.ca
On 08/06/2012 06:44 PM, pixl Aps wrote:
I've been doing a fair bit of measuring of lightubes (I can recommend Babelcolor CT&A and an Eye One pro for this - even though strictly the Spectral resolution of the eye one isn't enough to comply with 3664). If you want Phillips tubes you want Master TL-D 90 Graphica and these do work well in graphical arts environments - provided your casing doesn't change the color of the light. I've linked to a report on a newly installed set of these tubes at a customer site for those interested below.
Phillips_TLD90_Graphica.pdf (http://db.tt/Wx6Pu7YL)
Thomas Holm
Not with the intention to use LED lamps for that kind of critical applications but where do the TLD90 Graphica CRI 93 lack in color fidelity compared to the following LED lamp with CRI 92 ? http://www.olino.org/us/articles/2012/02/01/lemnis-lighting-asia-pharox-asia... The last still does not score good at the Red R9 and Blue R12 patches of that test though already much better than many other LED lamps. I have seen spectral plots of the Philips FL lamps but nothing like the measurements that olino.org does to get a good base for comparing. Replacing FL tubes with LED tubes is in my opinion not a good decision as the first will still be more economic considering purchase, running costs and lumen/watt ratio. The more with high CRI products. I doubt there will be better environmental aspects in either one. Mercury + fluorescents in FL versus the complexity of the LED tube designs, their production and the recycling of the parts later on. It is different for point light sources where a high CRI number is needed, replacing halogens, tungsten and CFLs with LED designs should be possible in time. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, piëzografie, giclée www.pigment-print.com
More information on NEC fluorescent tubes and SPD variations: http://goo.gl/exR6g Peaks are present in LEDs "tubes" too, both are daylight simulators. In the green way of life, tungsten halogen, that seems to be better daylight simulators but less efficient, and are far to be A class.
From memory, better color rendering fluorescent tubes are Class B.
The LED industry has made an effort to cover the now fadding market of flurescent tubes due to enviromental requirements, and in the recent few years has developed good daylight simulators, enough to be normalized in graphic technology, and adopting previous comercial shapes and sizes. And is easy to DIY. There are a lot of photographers and video makers that are making use of relatively expesive fluoreecent tubes from Kino Flo, with silimilar SPD that those used in graphic tecnology. Some of those photographers have fear to use make use of flash units and hand held photometers for photography. ;) A fast look at SPD of different light sources: http://goo.gl/kGO91 LED is going to eat you, fluorescent baby.
Ernst Dinkla wrote:
It is different for point light sources where a high CRI number is needed, replacing halogens, tungsten and CFLs with LED designs should be possible in time.
White LEDs based on blue + phosphor have an aging problem - they go green as the phosphor ages. White LED based on RGB are (by definition) three narrow band illuminants, and probably also change white point as they age (although this could be compensated for). Creating a high quality (ie. like sunlight) illuminant using LED's would seem to be non-trivial. Graeme Gill.
On 08/08/2012 02:47 AM, Graeme Gill wrote:
Ernst Dinkla wrote:
It is different for point light sources where a high CRI number is needed, replacing halogens, tungsten and CFLs with LED designs should be possible in time.
White LEDs based on blue + phosphor have an aging problem - they go green as the phosphor ages. White LED based on RGB are (by definition) three narrow band illuminants, and probably also change white point as they age (although this could be compensated for). Creating a high quality (ie. like sunlight) illuminant using LED's would seem to be non-trivial.
Graeme Gill.
Well the first experiment with a full spectrum white light, Quantum Dots covered LED, was almost a DIY job :-) I gave you the link: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/exploration/stories/quantumdotled.html The QDs show less energy loss than several fluorescent layers do. I am more optimistic about full spectrum white LED development, it may even be an LQD if their approach to feed the Quantum Dots directly with energy works, bypassing the UV light of the LED. My question remains though; the best CRI FLs still must have some flaws, on which patches of the CRI table, R9 as well ? -- Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, piëzografie, giclée www.pigment-print.com
participants (7)
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Ernst Dinkla
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Graeme Gill
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José Ángel Bueno García
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pixl Aps
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Robert Crow
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Robert Crow
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Roger Breton