Is there an HDM CMM for MacOS or Windows7-8?
I notice some sensible differences between ACE / Adobe CMM and HDM CMM / LittleCMS CMM in Adobe InDesign. Like, I always end up with more magenta and yellow with ACE? Curious. Alternatively, would there be a LittleCMS CMM for MacOSX or Win7-8? LittleCMS and HDM CMM agree pretty well with each other. Best / Roger
Hello Roger, LittleCMS runs on Mac. Dalim Twist uses it when configured to do so and I ColorThink uses it too. (ref http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/ColorThink_Pro_-_Profile_Inspector_and_Rename r) Here is a windows installer. http://www.littlecms.com/1/downloads.htm Matt Louis On 3/6/13 4:06 PM, "Roger Breton" <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
I notice some sensible differences between ACE / Adobe CMM and HDM CMM / LittleCMS CMM in Adobe InDesign.
Like, I always end up with more magenta and yellow with ACE?
Curious.
Alternatively, would there be a LittleCMS CMM for MacOSX or Win7-8?
LittleCMS and HDM CMM agree pretty well with each other.
Best / Roger
Thank's Matt, As usual, your comments are always resourceful :-) I downloaded the latest lcms-1.19 precompiled libraries for Windows from the link provided but no "LittleCMS CMM" anywhere in the distribution list :( / Roger -----Original Message----- From: Matt Louis [mailto:matt@printplace.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:27 PM To: Roger Breton; colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Is there an HDM CMM for MacOS or Windows7-8? Hello Roger, LittleCMS runs on Mac. Dalim Twist uses it when configured to do so and I ColorThink uses it too. (ref http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/ColorThink_Pro_-_Profile_Inspector_and_Rename r) Here is a windows installer. http://www.littlecms.com/1/downloads.htm Matt Louis
On Mar 6, 2013, at 3:26 PM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Thank's Matt,
As usual, your comments are always resourceful :-)
I downloaded the latest lcms-1.19 precompiled libraries for Windows from the link provided but no "LittleCMS CMM" anywhere in the distribution list :(
I don't think the LCMS is available as a compiled package for plugging into the Mac OS (or Windows for that matter). It's typically used for embedding into other apps like ColorThink etc. Sounds like a fun project for somebody! ;-) regards, Steve
Correction (before I get flamed...). Magenta is not *always* higher. Cyan is often lower and yellow is often higher. Magenta maybe lower, actually. The point is that I don't get the same separation. Grays, in particular, are particularly sensitive to the difference. In AbsCol mode, I may end up with b* of -3.7 with ACE whereas with LittleCMS or HDM CMM, I get b* of 0.3 with. I know Prinergy still offers a Kodak CFM... Have not had the chance to test it... I noticed that LittleCMS now offers a "Color translator"? The demo looks good but I have not seen an option for AbsCol RI? Of course, there's always Argyll... Hope I'm not forgetting anyone ;-) Best / Roger
Roger Breton wrote:
I notice some sensible differences between ACE / Adobe CMM and HDM CMM / LittleCMS CMM in Adobe InDesign.
Like, I always end up with more magenta and yellow with ACE?
That's a bit surprising. I know that Adobe have gone to a lot of trouble to ensure numerical accuracy of ACE, and that Marti often cross checks LittleCMS against ACE. There are a few interesting traps for the unwary CMM implementor in in dealing with linear light (ie. RAW) RGB profiles if you create an optimized for speed one step conversion, but that shouldn't usually apply to CMYK. There could be some variation in the nature of the interpolation within the grid (two common choices are simplex (AKA tetrahedral) interpolation and N-linear interpolation. Do you have a specific example ? (ie. profile and the values you were converting ?) Graeme Gill.
Here's an example. Lab CMM Cyan Mag Yell Black ------- -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- 50 0 0 (ACE) 48.83 40.60 41.37 15.95 50 0 0 (HDM) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Argyll) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (PatchTool) 49.09 40.64 40.73 15.79 In Argyll, I use: icclu -v -fb -ia SWOP2006_C3.icc, and get 50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.490807 0.406393 0.407315 0.157936 [CMYK] I use InDesign CS5.5 to carry the conversion in the color palette. I use ColorToolbox ColorCalculator to look up the CMYK value from Lab = 50 0 0. PatchTool uses LittleCMS libraries. In all these cases, I use the same output profile. I hope I'm doing something wrong in InDesign, but I think I have all the ColorSettings right. The difference may not look all that extreme, number wise, but visually, it shows, and any instrument picks is up. Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Graeme Gill Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 7:15 PM To: ColorSync Subject: Re: Is there an HDM CMM for MacOS or Windows7-8? Roger Breton wrote:
I notice some sensible differences between ACE / Adobe CMM and HDM CMM / LittleCMS CMM in Adobe InDesign.
Like, I always end up with more magenta and yellow with ACE?
That's a bit surprising. I know that Adobe have gone to a lot of trouble to ensure numerical accuracy of ACE, and that Marti often cross checks LittleCMS against ACE. There are a few interesting traps for the unwary CMM implementor in in dealing with linear light (ie. RAW) RGB profiles if you create an optimized for speed one step conversion, but that shouldn't usually apply to CMYK. There could be some variation in the nature of the interpolation within the grid (two common choices are simplex (AKA tetrahedral) interpolation and N-linear interpolation. Do you have a specific example ? (ie. profile and the values you were converting ?) Graeme Gill.
On Mar 6, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Here's an example.
Lab CMM Cyan Mag Yell Black ------- -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- 50 0 0 (ACE) 48.83 40.60 41.37 15.95 50 0 0 (HDM) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Argyll) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (PatchTool) 49.09 40.64 40.73 15.79
In Argyll, I use: icclu -v -fb -ia SWOP2006_C3.icc, and get 50.000000 0.000000 0.000000 [Lab] -> Lut -> 0.490807 0.406393 0.407315 0.157936 [CMYK]
I use InDesign CS5.5 to carry the conversion in the color palette.
I use ColorToolbox ColorCalculator to look up the CMYK value from Lab = 50 0 0.
PatchTool uses LittleCMS libraries.
In all these cases, I use the same output profile.
I hope I'm doing something wrong in InDesign, but I think I have all the ColorSettings right.
The difference may not look all that extreme, number wise, but visually, it shows, and any instrument picks is up.
Other than ACE everything looks pretty much in line. Is BPC involved in any way? Also, I'd do this in Photoshop rather than InDesign… but that's just me… Does Photoshop agree? regards, Steve
Steve,
Other than ACE everything looks pretty much in line.
Right.
Is BPC involved in any way?
How could it, Steve, when I'm using Absolute Colorimetry?
Also, I'd do this in Photoshop rather than InDesign… but that's just me… Does Photoshop agree?
Hard to say because Photoshop does not display fractional values in the Info palette. But here goes, the same table updated with Photoshop's values: 50 0 0 (ACE) 48.83 40.60 41.37 15.95 50 0 0 (HDM) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Argyll) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (PatchTool) 49.09 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Photoshop) 49 41 41 16 It may not seem much but it gets worse. Thank's / Roger
Hello Roger, Could you please calculate the profile with another software, to see if the same things happen ? It would also be nice to see, if its the same case with the CMYK->Lab table. Eg. convert an IT8/7.4 TIFF with your profile and different CMM to Lab and compare the results in Colorthink. (Her you gett more precice values as in in the photoshop info palette...) Jan-Peter Am 07.03.13 04:04, schrieb Roger Breton:
Steve,
Other than ACE everything looks pretty much in line. Right.
Is BPC involved in any way? How could it, Steve, when I'm using Absolute Colorimetry?
Also, I'd do this in Photoshop rather than InDesign… but that's just me… Does Photoshop agree? Hard to say because Photoshop does not display fractional values in the Info palette.
But here goes, the same table updated with Photoshop's values:
50 0 0 (ACE) 48.83 40.60 41.37 15.95 50 0 0 (HDM) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Argyll) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (PatchTool) 49.09 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Photoshop) 49 41 41 16
It may not seem much but it gets worse.
Thank's / Roger
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Jan-Peter, Using IDEAlliance's SWOP2006_Coated3v2 profile: 50 0 0 (ACE) 50.12 41.69 42.48 14.22 50 0 0 (PatchTool) 50.30 41.68 41.78 14.63 50 0 0 (Argyll) 50.29 41.68 41.78 14.22 See? Slightly less Cyan and slightly more Yellow. MfG / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Jan-Peter Homann Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 3:34 AM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Is there an HDM CMM for MacOS or Windows7-8? Hello Roger, Could you please calculate the profile with another software, to see if the same things happen ? It would also be nice to see, if its the same case with the CMYK->Lab table. Eg. convert an IT8/7.4 TIFF with your profile and different CMM to Lab and compare the results in Colorthink. (Her you gett more precice values as in in the photoshop info palette...) Jan-Peter Am 07.03.13 04:04, schrieb Roger Breton:
Steve,
Other than ACE everything looks pretty much in line. Right.
Is BPC involved in any way? How could it, Steve, when I'm using Absolute Colorimetry?
Also, I'd do this in Photoshop rather than InDesign… but that's just me… Does Photoshop agree? Hard to say because Photoshop does not display fractional values in the Info palette.
But here goes, the same table updated with Photoshop's values:
50 0 0 (ACE) 48.83 40.60 41.37 15.95 50 0 0 (HDM) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Argyll) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (PatchTool) 49.09 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Photoshop) 49 41 41 16
It may not seem much but it gets worse.
Thank's / Roger
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On Mar 6, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
How could it, Steve, when I'm using Absolute Colorimetry?
Also, I'd do this in Photoshop rather than InDesign… but that's just me… Does Photoshop agree?
Hard to say because Photoshop does not display fractional values in the Info palette.
But here goes, the same table updated with Photoshop's values:
50 0 0 (ACE) 48.83 40.60 41.37 15.95 50 0 0 (HDM) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Argyll) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (PatchTool) 49.09 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Photoshop) 49 41 41 16
OK, this is interesting. Have you tried the comparison using rel col? Adobe has made changes to the abs col intent lately. Do you see the same differences in older versions of ACE? regards, Steve
No, I have not tried comparison using RelCol because I am only interesting in hardcopy proofing. Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Steve Upton Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 1:14 PM To: ColorSync Users Subject: Re: Is there an HDM CMM for MacOS or Windows7-8? On Mar 6, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
How could it, Steve, when I'm using Absolute Colorimetry?
Also, I'd do this in Photoshop rather than InDesign… but that's just me… Does Photoshop agree?
Hard to say because Photoshop does not display fractional values in the Info palette.
But here goes, the same table updated with Photoshop's values:
50 0 0 (ACE) 48.83 40.60 41.37 15.95 50 0 0 (HDM) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Argyll) 49.08 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (PatchTool) 49.09 40.64 40.73 15.79 50 0 0 (Photoshop) 49 41 41 16
OK, this is interesting. Have you tried the comparison using rel col? Adobe has made changes to the abs col intent lately. Do you see the same differences in older versions of ACE? regards, Steve _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/graxx%40videotron.ca This email sent to graxx@videotron.ca
On 7 Mar 2013, at 18:49, Steve Upton <upton@chromix.com> wrote:
Understood, but from a trouble-shooting point of view it might help isolate the problem…
What exactly is the problem here? InDesign's arbitrary figures in the Color window? InDesign's ability to ignore changes in document colour settings when calculating Lab to CMYK conversions for pre-set swatches? InDesign incorporating your RGB working space when calculating Lab to CMYK conversions in the Color window? If you want good CMYK values out then you have to put good CMYK values in to InDesign and disable every feature enables it to second guess what you're trying to achieve :-) -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
Quick follow-up... The number of bits plays a pivotal role in the conversion results. Take the Dark Skin patch from my venerable (read "old") ColorChecker chart. 1pro2 M0 measurement suggests Lab D50/2 of 38.25 14.61 14.43. When I export to TIFF 8 bit, I "loose" precision in the ensuing conversion? Converting to my CMYK output profile, AbsCol, for example, gives me 42c 65m 71y 27k. Converting to my CMYK output profile in PatchTool (or Chromix?), presumably because the conversion is implicitely carried on a 16 bit level, I get 42.66c 64.87m 72.25y and 27.78k. Slightly less cyan, slightly more yellow and a tad more black. It does not seem like a whole lot of difference but every bit of difference counts when evaluating proof colors in my application. BTW, switching to 16 bit mode before converting a native 8 bit TIFF Lab, still gets the same result as If the conversion was done on an 8 bit document, that is I still get 42c 65m 71y 27k for my Input color. So the conclusion here is to bring in 16 bit TIFF Lab precision in the first place in Photoshop, in order to enjoy 16 bit precision conversion all the way. My bad :( When I do, the conversion to CMYK becomes 43c 65m 72y 28k, the result I want. Thank's for your patience and kind help. Best / Roger
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participants (7)
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Graeme Gill
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Jan-Peter Homann
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Martin Orpen
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Matt Louis
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Roger Breton
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Steve Miller
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Steve Upton