How is a printing press calibrated and how much does it cost?
Hi, I think I have a decent understanding of color management from image input, display and PDF output related to desktop publishing and photography editing software, etc. but I am not familiar with what goes into actually having a printing press calibrated and being able to produce accurate and predictable color from different printers, inks and papers from the POV of someone operating the printers themselves. I have the suspicion that the person I interface with when communicating with the printer I have no option but to work with, and who holds the responsibility and decision power of what and how to tweak in either the files I send or the printers themselves, is not particularly versed in current color management concepts either. I actually have the suspicion that he is stuck in mid-90s ways to do stuff, doing manual tweaking of ink output levels and so. I am meeting with that person in order to know why the magazines we print with them all seem washed out and seem to have a blue-ish shift in all pages, why they feel they need to tweak the ink balance of the PDF files we send them (if I understood correctly that that is what they feel they need to do each time we send them something), and how we should be sending them our stuff in order to make their lives easier and less prone to unexpected colors. Without one bit of intention of sounding like a jerk to that person (I have to work with him and them whatever the conclusion), I would like to anticipate what concepts that person should be familiar with in order to know, well… whether he knows what he is doing and there is something we can do to have better output, or whether he knows his stuff but there are other determinants (like cost) that limit how nice our prints can be or whether we are stuck with someone that does not know his job. When I send a PDF to the printer, and they will use, say, 5 different printing machines to print it, what goes into having them all print the same source consistently? I assume different levels of color consistency and predictability have different associated costs. What would be different "leagues" in printing press calibration related to how much equipment, software and calibration process would cost? What can those costs add up to for the printer? If the printer is able to handle RGB objects in a PDF (which they seemingly do), is there any benefit **from their POV** in me providing a PDF/X-4 instead of a PDF/X-1a and use RGB where it seems it makes sense (like pictures and other elements where I am not concerned about what/how many inks with what halftone pattern they use but with having their colors print predictably)? (I would assume so, if they somehow need to apply color conversion to my files to their particular CMYK color space, but I do not know). Up until know we have been generating the PDFs with Adobe's UncoatedFOGRA29.icc as output intent without really confirming whether that is appropriate for their printers (besides just knowing that the paper is uncoated). What our output intent should be is one of the answers I would like to ask, but I would like to anticipate whether this person can actually provide an answer to that. Jorge
Hi Jorge, Depending on which side of the Atlantic, the printing presses are either calibrated by the G7 methodology (North America) or by the TVI method (Europe). Once this calibration is done, the presses are profiled in a similar fashion. As both sides are targeting the same international standard for sheet-fed offset, currently ISO 12647-2:2013, the resulting ICC profiles from both sides cover almost the same gamut. On the European side, the datasets for coated paper follow the FOGRA27 (2004) -> FOGRA39 (2007) -> FOGRA51(2013) track. Similarly, the datasets for uncoated paper follow the FOGRA29 (2004) -> FOGRA47 (2007) -> FOGRA52 (2013) track. In fact, the ICC Profile Registry page of the official International Color Consortium web site: http://www.color.org/registry/index.xalter does have an extensive list of relevant ICC profiles. But please make note that this page is somewhat outdated; it still does not list FOGRA51 and FOGRA52 datasets and their related ICC profiles.
From the look of things your printer really seems to be stuck in the very old days. If they are in not capable of following any of the calibrate-than-profile road to any of these standards, simply ask them to supply an ICC profile that represents the printing that they can do on your paper. If they cannot do this by themselves, then just send them an ICC profile target, such as IT8.7/4 and/or ECI2002 as a page of your job and ask them to print it as they normally would print your job. You can then have these targets profiled by a ICC profile service provider.
Once you obtain the ICC profile, you can use it for all of your RGB-to-CMYK conversions and soft/hard proofing purposes. You can then just tell the printer to go on doing what they have been doing up to now and not change anything. The printer has to make sure that all 5 of their printing presses print to the same internal standard which is represented by the ICC profile. And if they are not capable of matching the outputs from these 5 presses, then they should dedicate one press for you and keep that press printing consistently. If they are not capable of doing any of the above, you should seriously start looking for a new print service provider that is capable of printing to a known standard. Best regards, -------------------------------------------------------- Refik Telhan, EE B.Sc. Light and Color Management Consultancy Aydogdu Sokak 12A, Tarabya Mahallesi Sariyer, 34457, Istanbul, Turkey Mobile: + (90) (532) 426 21 87 -------------------------------------------------------- On 18.07.2016 08:53, "Jorge ." <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com on behalf of chocolate.camera@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, I think I have a decent understanding of color management from image input, display and PDF output related to desktop publishing and photography editing software, etc. but I am not familiar with what goes into actually having a printing press calibrated and being able to produce accurate and predictable color from different printers, inks and papers from the POV of someone operating the printers themselves. I have the suspicion that the person I interface with when communicating with the printer I have no option but to work with, and who holds the responsibility and decision power of what and how to tweak in either the files I send or the printers themselves, is not particularly versed in current color management concepts either. I actually have the suspicion that he is stuck in mid-90s ways to do stuff, doing manual tweaking of ink output levels and so. I am meeting with that person in order to know why the magazines we print with them all seem washed out and seem to have a blue-ish shift in all pages, why they feel they need to tweak the ink balance of the PDF files we send them (if I understood correctly that that is what they feel they need to do each time we send them something), and how we should be sending them our stuff in order to make their lives easier and less prone to unexpected colors. Without one bit of intention of sounding like a jerk to that person (I have to work with him and them whatever the conclusion), I would like to anticipate what concepts that person should be familiar with in order to know, well… whether he knows what he is doing and there is something we can do to have better output, or whether he knows his stuff but there are other determinants (like cost) that limit how nice our prints can be or whether we are stuck with someone that does not know his job. When I send a PDF to the printer, and they will use, say, 5 different printing machines to print it, what goes into having them all print the same source consistently? I assume different levels of color consistency and predictability have different associated costs. What would be different "leagues" in printing press calibration related to how much equipment, software and calibration process would cost? What can those costs add up to for the printer? If the printer is able to handle RGB objects in a PDF (which they seemingly do), is there any benefit **from their POV** in me providing a PDF/X-4 instead of a PDF/X-1a and use RGB where it seems it makes sense (like pictures and other elements where I am not concerned about what/how many inks with what halftone pattern they use but with having their colors print predictably)? (I would assume so, if they somehow need to apply color conversion to my files to their particular CMYK color space, but I do not know). Up until know we have been generating the PDFs with Adobe's UncoatedFOGRA29.icc as output intent without really confirming whether that is appropriate for their printers (besides just knowing that the paper is uncoated). What our output intent should be is one of the answers I would like to ask, but I would like to anticipate whether this person can actually provide an answer to that. Jorge _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rtelhan%40icloud.com This email sent to rtelhan@icloud.com
Refik Telhan wrote:
From the look of things your printer really seems to be stuck in the very old days. If they are in not capable of following any of the calibrate-than-profile road to any of these standards, simply ask them to supply an ICC profile that represents the printing that they can do on your paper. If they cannot do this by themselves, then just send them an ICC profile target, such as IT8.7/4 and/or ECI2002 as a page of your job and ask them to print it as they normally would print your job. You can then have these targets profiled by a ICC profile service provider.
That only works if they run the press in a consistent manner. In the "bad old days", the press operator would tweak the press for each thing they were printing to "make it look good" or (better) to try and match a proof print sent to them with the job.
Once you obtain the ICC profile, you can use it for all of your RGB-to-CMYK conversions and soft/hard proofing purposes. You can then just tell the printer to go on doing what they have been doing up to now and not change anything.
If they are used to manual tweaking, then they need to be given something independent of what's being printed to match, even if that's test strips on each page.
If they are not capable of doing any of the above, you should seriously start looking for a new print service provider that is capable of printing to a known standard.
Yep. Hard work bringing a old school printing business into the modern age.
From their perspective they are just trying to do their best to make whatever junk their customers send them meet their expectations, using the one tool they have.
Graeme Gill.
participants (3)
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Graeme Gill
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Jorge .
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Refik Telhan