It's hard to say where customers get these ideas, but we haven't as an industry been very successful at communicating about color to others. One could even say that it is not helpful that the current Pantone libraries still include a "Pantone Black" and a "Pantone Yellow" that are not ISO 12647 colors at all (the yellow being especially different). But perhaps that's no worse than changing the Lab specs if not the composition of base mixing colors (e.g., Reflex Blue, Rubine Red) and colors mixed from them while leaving their names unchanged. I recently became aware of a very large discrepancy between the Lab values in the database for Pantone solid colors of a large ink company and those in any of the last three versions of the Pantone Solid libraries. Where did the ink company get those values? Nobody seems to remember. This is the world we inhabit. Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 15:18:05 -0500 From: Michael Eddington <meddington38@gmail.com> To: Todd Shirley <todds@urbanstudionyc.com> Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: "Pantone Process" Inks Message-ID: <CAJk2YzAcL1PvJ5VqPmHH5vDLuwcutapLe-eWswgYq4ksrW-FMA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Your interpretation is correct…Pantone CMYK primaries are governed under ISO 2846-1.
http://www.pantone.com/help/?t=CMYK-Primaries-not-found-in-PANTONE-FORMULA-G...
It's hard to say where customers get these ideas,
Well, not that long ago Pantone spot libraries came with a reading below each patch stating a purported equivalence to a fixed CMYK mix. And then people learn about color management and learn that colors are objectively represented by Lab coordinates, not CMYK mixes, since different CMYK inks actually produce different colors. I do not consider it a long stretch that someone interprets that the CMYK inks being referenced in Pantone spot libraries must then somehow be some specific ones guaranteed by Pantone to meet a certain standard, or even inks made by Pantone and only Pantone. On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Mike Strickler <info@mspgraphics.com> wrote:
It's hard to say where customers get these ideas, but we haven't as an industry been very successful at communicating about color to others. One could even say that it is not helpful that the current Pantone libraries still include a "Pantone Black" and a "Pantone Yellow" that are not ISO 12647 colors at all (the yellow being especially different). But perhaps that's no worse than changing the Lab specs if not the composition of base mixing colors (e.g., Reflex Blue, Rubine Red) and colors mixed from them while leaving their names unchanged. I recently became aware of a very large discrepancy between the Lab values in the database for Pantone solid colors of a large ink company and those in any of the last three versions of the Pantone Solid libraries. Where did the ink company get those values? Nobody seems to remember.
This is the world we inhabit.
Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 15:18:05 -0500 From: Michael Eddington <meddington38@gmail.com> To: Todd Shirley <todds@urbanstudionyc.com> Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: "Pantone Process" Inks Message-ID: <CAJk2YzAcL1PvJ5VqPmHH5vDLuwcutapLe-eWswgYq4ksrW-FMA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Your interpretation is correct…Pantone CMYK primaries are governed under ISO 2846-1.
http://www.pantone.com/help/?t=CMYK-Primaries-not-found-in-PANTONE-FORMULA-G...
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No, not a long stretch at all, and remember that the Process Guides still list CMYK (and most recently CMYKOGV) equivalents. Those guides are sitting on the same desks as the Pantone Solid Guides. On Mar 8, 2016, at 4:31 AM, Jorge . <chocolate.camera@gmail.com> wrote:
It's hard to say where customers get these ideas,
Well, not that long ago Pantone spot libraries came with a reading below each patch stating a purported equivalence to a fixed CMYK mix. And then people learn about color management and learn that colors are objectively represented by Lab coordinates, not CMYK mixes, since different CMYK inks actually produce different colors. I do not consider it a long stretch that someone interprets that the CMYK inks being referenced in Pantone spot libraries must then somehow be some specific ones guaranteed by Pantone to meet a certain standard, or even inks made by Pantone and only Pantone.
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Mike Strickler <info@mspgraphics.com> wrote:
It's hard to say where customers get these ideas, but we haven't as an industry been very successful at communicating about color to others. One could even say that it is not helpful that the current Pantone libraries still include a "Pantone Black" and a "Pantone Yellow" that are not ISO 12647 colors at all (the yellow being especially different). But perhaps that's no worse than changing the Lab specs if not the composition of base mixing colors (e.g., Reflex Blue, Rubine Red) and colors mixed from them while leaving their names unchanged. I recently became aware of a very large discrepancy between the Lab values in the database for Pantone solid colors of a large ink company and those in any of the last three versions of the Pantone Solid libraries. Where did the ink company get those values? Nobody seems to remember.
This is the world we inhabit.
Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services
Jorge, If you have a current PANTONE Bridge swatch book you will find the details of the CMYK printing conditions on one of the flaps. The CMYK values they provide are specified very precisely and reference ISO 12647-2 and ISO 2846-1. They include screen angles, screen frequency (175 l.p.i.) and dots shapes amongst other parameters. This means that the CMYK values 'equate' to a very specific but achievable colour space for the average, ISO standards-based print production line. Mark On Tue, 8 Mar 2016 at 23:32 Jorge . <chocolate.camera@gmail.com> wrote:
It's hard to say where customers get these ideas,
Well, not that long ago Pantone spot libraries came with a reading below each patch stating a purported equivalence to a fixed CMYK mix. And then people learn about color management and learn that colors are objectively represented by Lab coordinates, not CMYK mixes, since different CMYK inks actually produce different colors. I do not consider it a long stretch that someone interprets that the CMYK inks being referenced in Pantone spot libraries must then somehow be some specific ones guaranteed by Pantone to meet a certain standard, or even inks made by Pantone and only Pantone.
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Mike Strickler <info@mspgraphics.com> wrote:
It's hard to say where customers get these ideas, but we haven't as an industry been very successful at communicating about color to others. One could even say that it is not helpful that the current Pantone libraries still include a "Pantone Black" and a "Pantone Yellow" that are not ISO 12647 colors at all (the yellow being especially different). But perhaps that's no worse than changing the Lab specs if not the composition of base mixing colors (e.g., Reflex Blue, Rubine Red) and colors mixed from them while leaving their names unchanged. I recently became aware of a very large discrepancy between the Lab values in the database for Pantone solid colors of a large ink company and those in any of the last three versions of the Pantone Solid libraries. Where did the ink company get those values? Nobody seems to remember.
This is the world we inhabit.
Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 15:18:05 -0500 From: Michael Eddington <meddington38@gmail.com> To: Todd Shirley <todds@urbanstudionyc.com> Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: "Pantone Process" Inks Message-ID: <
CAJk2YzAcL1PvJ5VqPmHH5vDLuwcutapLe-eWswgYq4ksrW-FMA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Your interpretation is correct…Pantone CMYK primaries are governed under ISO 2846-1.
http://www.pantone.com/help/?t=CMYK-Primaries-not-found-in-PANTONE-FORMULA-G...
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Sure, the information is available, but it's hardly prominent. Second, saying that the builds represent what will achieve the target Lab values makes some very large assumptions about actual process control, which is the major cause of disappointment in such jobs, followed perhaps by the effect of differently colored substrates on the results. Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services
On Mar 8, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Mark Stegman <mark.stegman@gmail.com> wrote:
Jorge,
If you have a current PANTONE Bridge swatch book you will find the details of the CMYK printing conditions on one of the flaps. The CMYK values they provide are specified very precisely and reference ISO 12647-2 and ISO 2846-1. They include screen angles, screen frequency (175 l.p.i.) and dots shapes amongst other parameters. This means that the CMYK values 'equate' to a very specific but achievable colour space for the average, ISO standards-based print production line.
Mark
On Tue, 8 Mar 2016 at 23:32 Jorge . <chocolate.camera@gmail.com> wrote:
It's hard to say where customers get these ideas,
Well, not that long ago Pantone spot libraries came with a reading below each patch stating a purported equivalence to a fixed CMYK mix. And then people learn about color management and learn that colors are objectively represented by Lab coordinates, not CMYK mixes, since different CMYK inks actually produce different colors. I do not consider it a long stretch that someone interprets that the CMYK inks being referenced in Pantone spot libraries must then somehow be some specific ones guaranteed by Pantone to meet a certain standard, or even inks made by Pantone and only Pantone.
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Mike Strickler <info@mspgraphics.com> wrote:
It's hard to say where customers get these ideas, but we haven't as an industry been very successful at communicating about color to others. One could even say that it is not helpful that the current Pantone libraries still include a "Pantone Black" and a "Pantone Yellow" that are not ISO 12647 colors at all (the yellow being especially different). But perhaps that's no worse than changing the Lab specs if not the composition of base mixing colors (e.g., Reflex Blue, Rubine Red) and colors mixed from them while leaving their names unchanged. I recently became aware of a very large discrepancy between the Lab values in the database for Pantone solid colors of a large ink company and those in any of the last three versions of the Pantone Solid libraries. Where did the ink company get those values? Nobody seems to remember.
This is the world we inhabit.
Mike Strickler MSP Graphic Services
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 15:18:05 -0500 From: Michael Eddington <meddington38@gmail.com> To: Todd Shirley <todds@urbanstudionyc.com> Cc: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: "Pantone Process" Inks Message-ID: <CAJk2YzAcL1PvJ5VqPmHH5vDLuwcutapLe-eWswgYq4ksrW-FMA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Your interpretation is correct…Pantone CMYK primaries are governed under ISO 2846-1.
http://www.pantone.com/help/?t=CMYK-Primaries-not-found-in-PANTONE-FORMULA-G...
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/chocolate.camera%40g...
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Thanks for all the feedback so far. After doing some testing with our RIP, we think we know where this misconception may have started. If you take a GRACol CMYK image and relabel each channel in Photoshop as PANTONE Cyan, Pantone Magenta, etc., the colors proof richer and more saturated because the RIP doesn't know anything about how the colors should overprint, it's just doing it's best guess based on the solid inks and and dot gain curve that may (or may not) be applied. I used the Pantone Process colors and got a richer more saturated proof. This is of course not color-managed in any way, but it looks richer. This channel substitution is surprisingly easy to do in Photoshop by just selecting the “PANTONE solid coated” library. The first four choices are PANTONE Process Yellow C, PANTONE Process Magenta C, PANTONE Process Cyan C & PANTONE Process Black C. To a novice, this looks like legitimate inks that could be chosen to be used in an image. And it seems that this is what the other vendor may be doing - when they sub in “pantone Process” inks, they get a richer proof, ergo, these are “richer inks”. This has been going on with this client, vendor & printers for years now. We are in fact required to label all our proofs with swatches that say PANTONE Process Yellow C, PANTONE Process Magenta C, etc. so that the printers know to use the “pantone process” inks. It is happening with a job that we are working on right now. It appears to be an emperor has no clothes situation, but there doesn’t seem to be any great advantage to us pointing this out to any of the parties. It is unclear if this is active deception or if everyone truly believes these are actually different inks. The reason I’m writing all this is that I need to be 100% clear that “pantone process” inks are not a real thing. As has been pointed out, Pantone doesn’t actually make ink, and this is what they said when I inquired about this 2 years ago. There is no formulation of process inks that is different, correct? Does anyone have a similar story or have any further insight on this situation? Thanks again!
Todd, It was pointed out in an earlier email that these colours have been officially 'abandoned' by Pantone since they updated their Libraries in 2010... http://www.pantone.com/help/?t=CMYK-Primaries-not-found-in-PANTONE-FORMULA-G... Pantone Color Bridge defines CMYK values referencing ISO 12647-2 (Offset processes) and ISO 2846-1 (inks). The fact that they are colorimetrically different to those standardised reference colours is probably one of the reasons they were 'dumped'. Unfortunately, many 'creatives' persist with legacy applications (just look at the resistance to Creative Cloud) and 'old habits' as well as legacy files. If you want consistent predictable colour use inks that conform to the standard in combination with the specified substrates and tell your customers to convert these colours to the standard process equivalent or you will. Otherwise, as you say, they are not a "real thing" and you are effectively using a 'spot' colour as part of your process set. Mark On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 at 07:48 Todd Shirley <todds@urbanstudionyc.com> wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback so far.
After doing some testing with our RIP, we think we know where this misconception may have started. If you take a GRACol CMYK image and relabel each channel in Photoshop as PANTONE Cyan, Pantone Magenta, etc., the colors proof richer and more saturated because the RIP doesn't know anything about how the colors should overprint, it's just doing it's best guess based on the solid inks and and dot gain curve that may (or may not) be applied. I used the Pantone Process colors and got a richer more saturated proof. This is of course not color-managed in any way, but it looks richer.
This channel substitution is surprisingly easy to do in Photoshop by just selecting the “PANTONE solid coated” library. The first four choices are PANTONE Process Yellow C, PANTONE Process Magenta C, PANTONE Process Cyan C & PANTONE Process Black C. To a novice, this looks like legitimate inks that could be chosen to be used in an image. And it seems that this is what the other vendor may be doing - when they sub in “pantone Process” inks, they get a richer proof, ergo, these are “richer inks”.
This has been going on with this client, vendor & printers for years now. We are in fact required to label all our proofs with swatches that say PANTONE Process Yellow C, PANTONE Process Magenta C, etc. so that the printers know to use the “pantone process” inks. It is happening with a job that we are working on right now. It appears to be an emperor has no clothes situation, but there doesn’t seem to be any great advantage to us pointing this out to any of the parties. It is unclear if this is active deception or if everyone truly believes these are actually different inks.
The reason I’m writing all this is that I need to be 100% clear that “pantone process” inks are not a real thing. As has been pointed out, Pantone doesn’t actually make ink, and this is what they said when I inquired about this 2 years ago. There is no formulation of process inks that is different, correct? Does anyone have a similar story or have any further insight on this situation?
Thanks again! _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
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On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:47 PM, Todd Shirley <todds@urbanstudionyc.com> wrote:
There is no formulation of process inks that is different, correct?
Erm.... Making ink is ancient technology. Anybody who's competent enough to make noodles with marinara sauce from scratch in the kitchen should be able to make ink. And there're all sorts of cyan-ish, yellow-ish, and so on pigments that you could use to make inks that would work just fine in a CMYK process printer. With a good workflow, you could even get some great color-managed prints out of something that at first blush might seem weird. Pantone publishes specifications for ink formulation. That publication includes thousands of inks, four of which happen to be certain variations on the cyan, magenta, yellow, and black themes. Pantone's specification for those four is a specification shared by lots of other standards organizations. In fact, most CMYK inksets sold for general-purpose printing are going to either meet those standards or at least be within shouting distance of them; for the most part, everybody is on the same sheet of music. But there's nothing that says that everybody actually is or must be or whatever. Again, not only are there other formulations out there, you could yourself cook up your own. If you trust the source of the ink, information should be available from that source as to what standards, if any, the ink has been formulated to comply with. If not or if you think verification is in order, a spectrometer is the only device you need to check for yourself. Maybe an analogy might help? Your car calls for premium unleaded gasoline. "Premium" isn't a well-defined term. Almost every gas station sells multiple grades, with the highest octane rating being labeled as premium. In some US states, it might be 93 octane; in others, 91 octane. Some regions use different methods to calculate octane rating. And some gas stations mislabel (intentionally or otherwise) the octane rating of the gas they sell. It's up to you to determine what you actually do and don't need and what level of paranoia you feel is necessary to satisfy your purchase decisions at the pump. Cheers, b&
participants (7)
-
Ben Goren
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Jorge .
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Mark Stegman
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MIke Strickler
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Mike Strickler
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Pylant, Brian
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Todd Shirley