Re: Why 2 degree observer measurements for ICC profiles?
Hi Jan-Peter, but you will not judge the complete monitor image at once nor will you judge the complete magazine. You typically focus on a smaller area and then change your focus. Think of how you make a proof-to-print evaluation. Best regards Claas Jan-Peter Homann schrieb am 17.07.24 um 08:49:
Hi Claas, Thanks for your explanation. I made your simple test, and even my Laptop monitor is bigger than my fist. Same for looking on a double sided magazine with photos.
Should we change to the the 10° observer for the printing industry? Whats about defining the printing industry as being part both of the media industry and a technical process for coating surfaces?
Both industries are using 10° observer for measurements...
Best regards Jan-Peter
Am 7/16/2024 um 9:22 AM schrieb Claas Bickeböller via colorsync-users:
Hi Peter,
The difference between the 2° and 10° observer is basically the size of the area on your retina that is stimulated. For the 2° observer mainly the cones in the center of the retina are stimulated while for the 10° observer also the rods are stimulated. That leads to a difference in color perception. Here is a quite nice visualization: https://santhalakshminarayana.github.io/images/color-science/standard-observ...
The type of application when our perception is like a 2° observer or a 10° observer respectively is closely related to the viewing distance.
When you look at a printed product from a typical viewing distance of 50-60cm the field of view is close to 2°. That's why for ICC profiles that are mainly used for print applications the 2° observer is the standard.
When you look at other products like let's say a painted wall the filed of view is close to 10°.
The wording on our website is a little misleading I must admit. Most of our industrial products are used for applications where the viewing distance leads to a field of view where the 10° observer correlates better than the 2° observer.
BTW, when you want to check if in a certain situation "you are" the 2° or the 10° observer there is a simple test.
Stretch out your arm, thumb upwards and look at your thumb with one eye. The area that is covered corresponds to approximately 2°. If the area can be covered with the entire fist, this is approximately 10°.
Best regards
Claas
Peter Miles via colorsync-users schrieb am 16.07.24 um 04:13:
Hi list members. Hoping some color science folk out there on the list could help answer a question I have.
From Konica Minoltas web page titled “Understanding standard observers in color measurement” “CIE standard observers help correlate instrumental color measurements to human visual assessments. The 1964 10 Degree Supplementary Standard Observer is considered to be more representative of how the human eye perceives color.”
So why do ICC profiles, for print production, still use 2degree observer measurements instead of 10 degree observer measurements? Given that the 10 degree observer “is considered to be more representative of how the human eye perceives color. (me: Than 2 degree observer)”
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How were the observations made, were they single colors or 2 or 4 different colors adjacent to each other? If they were single colors there would be no context and therefore would not be a realisitic way of determining the experience of color. I’m curious about the observer conclusions and what can honestly be said about them. Whether from 10° or 2°, does the observer test have a some weaknesses - maybe a lot of weakness? It seems to me that the matter involves relying on “the best we have” even though it isn’t the best it could be. Henry Davis
On Jul 17, 2024, at 3:35 AM, Claas Bickeböller via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Hi Jan-Peter,
but you will not judge the complete monitor image at once nor will you judge the complete magazine. You typically focus on a smaller area and then change your focus. Think of how you make a proof-to-print evaluation.
Best regards
Claas
Jan-Peter Homann schrieb am 17.07.24 um 08:49:
Hi Claas, Thanks for your explanation. I made your simple test, and even my Laptop monitor is bigger than my fist. Same for looking on a double sided magazine with photos.
Should we change to the the 10° observer for the printing industry? Whats about defining the printing industry as being part both of the media industry and a technical process for coating surfaces?
Both industries are using 10° observer for measurements...
Best regards Jan-Peter
Yes, I also would think there's a difference between judging a large area of uniform color and the small areas (less than 2 degrees) of adjcent colors in an image, where simultaneous contrast comes into effect, so 2 degrees would be most appropriate for the latter. On Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 06:20:40 AM MST, Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote: How were the observations made, were they single colors or 2 or 4 different colors adjacent to each other? If they were single colors there would be no context and therefore would not be a realisitic way of determining the experience of color. I’m curious about the observer conclusions and what can honestly be said about them. Whether from 10° or 2°, does the observer test have a some weaknesses - maybe a lot of weakness? It seems to me that the matter involves relying on “the best we have” even though it isn’t the best it could be. Henry Davis
On Jul 17, 2024, at 3:35 AM, Claas Bickeböller via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Hi Jan-Peter,
but you will not judge the complete monitor image at once nor will you judge the complete magazine. You typically focus on a smaller area and then change your focus. Think of how you make a proof-to-print evaluation.
Best regards
Claas
Jan-Peter Homann schrieb am 17.07.24 um 08:49:
Hi Claas, Thanks for your explanation. I made your simple test, and even my Laptop monitor is bigger than my fist. Same for looking on a double sided magazine with photos.
Should we change to the the 10° observer for the printing industry? Whats about defining the printing industry as being part both of the media industry and a technical process for coating surfaces?
Both industries are using 10° observer for measurements...
Best regards Jan-Peter
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/waynebretl%40cox.net This email sent to waynebretl@cox.net
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Some references on the origin of the Standard Observer. The first is easily digestible. The second, official source (CIE) is more detailed. Note the standard was revised in 1964 to the 10 degree specification with no tangible effect on the results (as I read it). Those on this forum with more technical expertise may like to expand. https://support.hunterlab.com/hc/en-us/articles/203420099-CIE-Standard-Obser... https://cie.co.at/publications/colorimetry-part-1-cie-standard-colorimetric-... Mark Stegman On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 at 02:36, Kneringer Clemens via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
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Yuta Asano’s work Individual Colorimetric Observer Model (https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0145671) co-authored by Mark D. Fairchild and Laurent Blondé clearly points to one basic fact: we all have different CMFs. Any standard observer at any FOV will just be representing only few of us. “Averaging” thousands or even millions of real observers will not make things any better. The calculated CMFs will only represent few real observers. Illuminant metamerism and its lesser known sibling observer metamerism will always be with us. The second paragraph of the abstract on CIE’s page on “CIE Standard Colorimetric Observers” (https://cie.co.at/publications/colorimetry-part-1-cie-standard-colorimetric-...) says it all: “It has long been the practice in colorimetry to make use of sets of colour-matching functions to calculate tristimulus values for colours: equality of tristimulus values for a pair of colours indicates that the colour appearances of the two colours match, when they are viewed in the same conditions by an observer for whom the colour-matching functions apply.” We know the shortcomings of the current standard observers. Replacing them with others will not make things any better. Refik Telhan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Stegman via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Reply-To: Mark Stegman <mark.stegman@gmail.com <mailto:mark.stegman@gmail.com>> Date: 18 July 2024 Thursday 02:10 To: Kneringer Clemens <office@kneringer.com <mailto:office@kneringer.com>> Cc: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Re: Why 2 degree observer measurements for ICC profiles? Some references on the origin of the Standard Observer. The first is easily digestible. The second, official source (CIE) is more detailed. Note the standard was revised in 1964 to the 10 degree specification with no tangible effect on the results (as I read it). Those on this forum with more technical expertise may like to expand. https://support.hunterlab.com/hc/en-us/articles/203420099-CIE-Standard-Obser... <https://support.hunterlab.com/hc/en-us/articles/203420099-CIE-Standard-Observers-and-calculation-of-CIE-X-Y-Z-color-values-AN-1002b> https://cie.co.at/publications/colorimetry-part-1-cie-standard-colorimetric-... <https://cie.co.at/publications/colorimetry-part-1-cie-standard-colorimetric-observers> Mark Stegman On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 at 02:36, Kneringer Clemens via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
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_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rtelhan%40icloud.com <https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rtelhan%40icloud.com> This email sent to rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>
Million-dollar-idea-of-the-week and it’s only Thursday! It could make a comeback: t-shirts that change color as the light changes, also sneakers, ball caps, tattoos (neon tattoo ink is a thing) endless possibilites! Henry Davis
On Jul 18, 2024, at 10:14 AM, Scott Martin via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
"Illuminant metamerism and its lesser known sibling observer metamerism will always be with us.”
I love it! ColorSync bumper sticker or T-Shirt anyone?
Scott Martin www.on-sight.com Imaging Science for Art
participants (7)
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Claas Bickeböller
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Henry Davis
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Kneringer Clemens
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Mark Stegman
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Refik Telhan
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Scott Martin
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WAYNE BRETL