No consolation when you’ve got the image maker, who often isn’t the client, crying in the viewing booth :(
This is a real problem when clients are used to you being able to pull problematic images, fix them up and replace them seamlessly and economically in most jobs.
With 51 you have to reject all the images and then hand out a fact sheet on how they have to shift to perceptual (even if it looks different in Photoshop) and, even then, it still won’t boost the yellows (or reduce the magenta in our case) in the same way that non-Photoshop workflows do.
I know, but is this really any different from all the other difficulties customers presented you with before this? What happened when they converted to ISO Uncoated or an IFRA news profile and posterized some colors by using rel col instead of perceptual? Why not ask them to use the older ISO Ctd v2 and you take it the rest of the way—and ask for original RGB images when they have them? And get or make some decent device links with better highlight scaling? Mike
On 23 Aug 2018, at 20:52, Mike Strickler <info@mspgraphics.com> wrote:
I know, but is this really any different from all the other difficulties customers presented you with before this? What happened when they converted to ISO Uncoated or an IFRA news profile and posterized some colors by using rel col instead of perceptual? Why not ask them to use the older ISO Ctd v2 and you take it the rest of the way—and ask for original RGB images when they have them? And get or make some decent device links with better highlight scaling?
It is different. As most people (in Europe) are used to using FOGRA39, the 51 experience is very different. What you see on screen is not what you’re going to get. And it doesn’t matter whether you use perceptual or relative in Photoshop, those light, white skin tones don’t have enough yellow in them.. Problems with uncoated or newsprint are usually issues with density range expectations and clients can appreciate that images will need a bit more intervention. This is easy to explain and fix in a pre-press workflow. But, again, FOGRA52 is a big problem (as I’ve mentioned here before). Again the issue is with yellow. The ECI profile cannot be replicated from the published data. You cannot create a viable ICC profile from this published data using either i1 Profiler or Argyll etc. You get CMYK separations with almost NO yellow! It’s not unreasonable to expect that newer standards will give you better results... -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
Martin, if I remember the discussion about FOGRA52 the conclusion was: There are gamut mapping algorithms out there which give decent results using the new characterization data. It’s just that they are not inside the profilers you have currently access to. Correct? So why don’t you simply buy a decent profiler, create a profile with a mapping that you prefer and give these profiles to your clients? My 2 cents Claas
Am 24.08.2018 um 02:18 schrieb Martin Orpen <martin@idea-digital.com>:
On 23 Aug 2018, at 20:52, Mike Strickler <info@mspgraphics.com> wrote:
I know, but is this really any different from all the other difficulties customers presented you with before this? What happened when they converted to ISO Uncoated or an IFRA news profile and posterized some colors by using rel col instead of perceptual? Why not ask them to use the older ISO Ctd v2 and you take it the rest of the way—and ask for original RGB images when they have them? And get or make some decent device links with better highlight scaling?
It is different.
As most people (in Europe) are used to using FOGRA39, the 51 experience is very different.
What you see on screen is not what you’re going to get. And it doesn’t matter whether you use perceptual or relative in Photoshop, those light, white skin tones don’t have enough yellow in them..
Problems with uncoated or newsprint are usually issues with density range expectations and clients can appreciate that images will need a bit more intervention. This is easy to explain and fix in a pre-press workflow.
But, again, FOGRA52 is a big problem (as I’ve mentioned here before). Again the issue is with yellow.
The ECI profile cannot be replicated from the published data. You cannot create a viable ICC profile from this published data using either i1 Profiler or Argyll etc.
You get CMYK separations with almost NO yellow!
It’s not unreasonable to expect that newer standards will give you better results...
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On 24 Aug 2018, at 07:12, Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name> wrote:
if I remember the discussion about FOGRA52 the conclusion was:
There are gamut mapping algorithms out there which give decent results using the new characterization data. It’s just that they are not inside the profilers you have currently access to.
Correct?
So why don’t you simply buy a decent profiler, create a profile with a mapping that you prefer and give these profiles to your clients?
As much as I’d love to completely replace our software every time a new standard is published, the way things were left here was with X-Rite admitting that i1Profiler could not produce a viable profile from the 52 data and that the fix would require them rewriting code in their Prism colour engine — so don’t hold your breath… FYI: we don’t supply profiles to clients. They are using the ECI profile in Photoshop and we are having to fix the problems that this causes. In 39 we could fix and send images back to them without any issues. We cannot do that with 51 and 52 because the differences between Photoshop and products like GMG’s ColorServer are so very different. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
participants (3)
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Claas Bickeböller
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Martin Orpen
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Mike Strickler