Well, Andrew, just to push the discussion further, I would *love* to hear what Steve Upton would have to say about “unique colors” since he’s the one that wrote the application: what numerical criteria does Steve use in ColorThink to distinguish among “unique colors”? In the meantime, I’m willing to buy 208,486 😊 / Roger From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 4:31 PM To: <graxx@videotron.ca> <graxx@videotron.ca>; Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: 1 billion colors Got a copy of ColorThink Pro? Take the TIFF, load it into that product, Extract all unique color values into a color list. What do you get? I get 208486. Then use Convert all colors to list, what do you get? I get 250000 You got a silly answer ("1 is missing") but there are tools to actually analyze such a document without the need to assume..... Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ On Jan 6, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> > wrote: Is anyone able to discriminate between the 16.7 million colors in this 24-bit RGB image? https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqko8JmNRgIB2qvxz-iA?e=7il8Xk Be honest. / Roger _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> ) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/andrew%40digitaldog.... This email sent to andrew@digitaldog.net <mailto:andrew@digitaldog.net>
Is the point is to proffer awareness that RGB coding is far from perceptually uniform? Ya it's exactly this attribute that necessitates the extra bits. Integer RGB is a mechanical space. Pull a bit lever and cause a stimulus change from the device. It so happens—as Florian points out—that synthetic single channel data—the kind that test charts are made of—exposes a weakness in the coding that ultimately is overcome by adding channel bits. This over-provisions other parts of the space. OK. So...? What do you think this says about the format and future directions of tech? As to this parsing about actual colors, consider an experiment where you take your palette of 200k distinct colors in RGB and uniformly add/subtract some small number to their values with results within the 16 million range of the space then place this adjusted set side-by-side with the original and see if you can discern the difference? If you can, what would this say about the necessity of the bigger range? On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 13:36 Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Well, Andrew, just to push the discussion further, I would *love* to hear what Steve Upton would have to say about “unique colors” since he’s the one that wrote the application: what numerical criteria does Steve use in ColorThink to distinguish among “unique colors”?
In the meantime, I’m willing to buy 208,486 😊
/ Roger
From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 4:31 PM To: <graxx@videotron.ca> <graxx@videotron.ca>; Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: 1 billion colors
Got a copy of ColorThink Pro?
Take the TIFF, load it into that product, Extract all unique color values into a color list. What do you get?
I get 208486.
Then use Convert all colors to list, what do you get?
I get 250000
You got a silly answer ("1 is missing") but there are tools to actually analyze such a document without the need to assume.....
Andrew Rodney
On Jan 6, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>
wrote:
Is anyone able to discriminate between the 16.7 million colors in this 24-bit RGB image?
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqko8JmNRgIB2qvxz-iA?e=7il8Xk
Be honest.
/ Roger
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On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:22 PM, Wire ~ via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Is the point is to proffer awareness that RGB coding is far from perceptually uniform?
Nope.
Ya it's exactly this attribute that necessitates the extra bits.
You still need to tie bits (numbers) and colors into understanding. They are not the same.
Integer RGB is a mechanical space. Pull a bit lever and cause a stimulus change from the device.
You're making this far more confusing then you need to.
It so happens—as Florian points out—that synthetic single channel data—the kind that test charts are made of—exposes a weakness in the coding that ultimately is overcome by adding channel bits. This over-provisions other parts of the space. OK. So...? What do you think this says about the format and future directions of tech?
Off topic,
As to this parsing about actual colors, consider an experiment where you take your palette of 200k distinct colors in RGB and uniformly add/subtract some small number to their values with results within the 16 million range of the space then place this adjusted set side-by-side with the original and see if you can discern the difference? If you can, what would this say about the necessity of the bigger range?
You're making this far more confusing than you need to. Numbers can be colors, numbers may not be colors. Colors are visible. Some numbers are not. Simple. There are not 1 billion colors. There are 1 billion numbers. Understand? Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ <http://www.digitaldog.net/>
On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 13:36 Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Well, Andrew, just to push the discussion further, I would *love* to hear what Steve Upton would have to say about “unique colors” since he’s the one that wrote the application: what numerical criteria does Steve use in ColorThink to distinguish among “unique colors”?
In the meantime, I’m willing to buy 208,486 😊
/ Roger
From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 4:31 PM To: <graxx@videotron.ca> <graxx@videotron.ca>; Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: 1 billion colors
Got a copy of ColorThink Pro?
Take the TIFF, load it into that product, Extract all unique color values into a color list. What do you get?
I get 208486.
Then use Convert all colors to list, what do you get?
I get 250000
You got a silly answer ("1 is missing") but there are tools to actually analyze such a document without the need to assume.....
Andrew Rodney
On Jan 6, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>
wrote:
Is anyone able to discriminate between the 16.7 million colors in this 24-bit RGB image?
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqko8JmNRgIB2qvxz-iA?e=7il8Xk
Be honest.
/ Roger
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https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/andrew%40digitaldog....
This email sent to andrew@digitaldog.net <mailto:andrew@digitaldog.net>
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Thank you for making the same point repeatedly. Saying it over and over doesn't make your observation more clear. If you think there's some perfectly quantifiable count of all the colors which is well known, then you are a victim of the very ignorance you are claiming to dispell. You're obviously a thoughful writer. So there's a gap here we have to home in on. There's some unspoken presupposition to your belabored point which I am seeking to uncover. But it would be easier if you do it yourself You've laid out your premise that if you discount dE below some threshold that the map of perception can rely on far fewer values than cinventional RGB But this overlooks that RGB is not a perceptually optimized format. Moreover, as the visual system is a comparator, not an accumulator, you've rhetorically hoisted yourself on your own petard by suggesting that color is countable at all. To count it requires a model, which relies on assumptions many of which are well known to be variable, but which are simplified with useful approximations. I paraphrase your point 'don't forget how subjective color is to the model for our understanding' then you go on to argue 'there's a definitive reality to color and the CIE shows it's this many' (insert count of dE delimited values over spectrum locus' That's going in circles... What is your larger point? On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 14:33 Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> wrote:
On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:22 PM, Wire ~ via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Is the point is to proffer awareness that RGB coding is far from perceptually uniform?
Nope.
Ya it's exactly this attribute that necessitates the extra bits.
You still need to tie bits (numbers) and colors into understanding. They are not the same.
Integer RGB is a mechanical space. Pull a bit lever and cause a stimulus change from the device.
You're making this far more confusing then you need to.
It so happens—as Florian points out—that synthetic single channel data—the kind that test charts are made of—exposes a weakness in the coding that ultimately is overcome by adding channel bits. This over-provisions other parts of the space. OK. So...? What do you think this says about the format and future directions of tech?
Off topic,
As to this parsing about actual colors, consider an experiment where you take your palette of 200k distinct colors in RGB and uniformly add/subtract some small number to their values with results within the 16 million range of the space then place this adjusted set side-by-side with the original and see if you can discern the difference? If you can, what would this say about the necessity of the bigger range?
You're making this far more confusing than you need to. Numbers can be colors, numbers may not be colors. Colors are visible. Some numbers are not. Simple. There are not 1 billion colors. There are 1 billion numbers. Understand?
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 13:36 Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Well, Andrew, just to push the discussion further, I would *love* to hear what Steve Upton would have to say about “unique colors” since he’s the one that wrote the application: what numerical criteria does Steve use in ColorThink to distinguish among “unique colors”?
In the meantime, I’m willing to buy 208,486 😊
/ Roger
From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 4:31 PM To: <graxx@videotron.ca> <graxx@videotron.ca>; Andrew Rodney via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: 1 billion colors
Got a copy of ColorThink Pro?
Take the TIFF, load it into that product, Extract all unique color values into a color list. What do you get?
I get 208486.
Then use Convert all colors to list, what do you get?
I get 250000
You got a silly answer ("1 is missing") but there are tools to actually analyze such a document without the need to assume.....
Andrew Rodney
On Jan 6, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users < colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>
wrote:
Is anyone able to discriminate between the 16.7 million colors in this 24-bit RGB image?
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqko8JmNRgIB2qvxz-iA?e=7il8Xk
Be honest.
/ Roger
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> ) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
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This email sent to andrew@digitaldog.net <mailto:andrew@digitaldog.net>
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On Jan 6, 2020, at 1:36 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Well, Andrew, just to push the discussion further, I would *love* to hear what Steve Upton would have to say about “unique colors” since he’s the one that wrote the application: what numerical criteria does Steve use in ColorThink to distinguish among “unique colors”?
Gah! I've been drawn into the angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin discussion again! I agree with all of you... does that help? I have to admit the "There's a color missing, prove me wrong" is pretty damn funny. Good to get a chuckle from this stuff sometimes. My 2 bits? There's an interesting point here about the difference between addressable colors and addressable unique colors. For me (not necessarily using the correct terms) an addressable color in this discussion would be any RGB value that results in a Yxy value that falls within the chromaticity diagram and represents an actual, visible color. This includes any precision level so imaginary 128bit-per-channel RGB spaces would be included as well. There'd be a lot of wasted bits addressing imperceptible color differences but they'd be real colors. This brings me to: Addressable *unique* colors is the idea that perceptual spaces like Lab have a kind of maximum resolution, where we could use a set of coordinates that is no more precise than our ability to see the differences between colors. Each unique color is effectively assigned a coordinate and we're good to go. "But wait", you might say, "color perception is analogue and infinitely variable" (nod to Mr Gnaegy, good to hear from you sir). "A hard-edged coordinate system could never capture it!" I agree that we're analogue beasties but it's not a problem. In our discussion we're talking about trying to address unique colors. If we use such a hard-edged coordinate system there's nothing saying it can't be slid around / re-aligned with infinite precision, only that the differences between the coordinates would need to remain the minimum perceptible difference between colors - therefore it still addresses unique colors... If I understand and slightly warp the intentions of our color forefathers properly, CIELAB was intended to be just such a coordinate system, where 1 unit of movement in any direction would be the human perceptual limit of color change. If you added up the "volume" of such 1-unit cubes in a defined area, such as a printer gamut, then you'd have a number representing the number of unique colors available. That's exactly what I do in ColorThink. Unfortunately CIELAB is flawed, or perhaps it's better to say that human color perception doesn't adhere to such a simple model. Newer models have been created such as CIECAM that help address some of these limitations. Suffice to say that there's broad agreement that CIELAB and delta-E 76 are dangerous to use naively, yet remain quite useful and delta-E 2000 helps bring color differencing numbers more in line with human perception. Though I recognized that the concept of a total gamut volume is disputable and somewhat flawed from the start, I thought that it probably still had value and chose to include it in ColorThink Pro. At the very least I thought it would start some interesting discussions! Overall, I think it has been useful, especially in a comparative sense. Are there better ways of doing it? Undoubtedly. Is there agreement on which ways are better? Not much that I can find yet, but work on the science continues and we continue to learn as we go. Those who are attending the Color20 Conference in San Diego next week will be treated to a sneak peak of what's coming in ColorThink 4 later this year - like new color spaces for graphing, advanced gamut comparison functions, and so forth. regards, Steve
participants (4)
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Andrew Rodney
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graxx＠videotron.ca
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Steve Upton
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Wire ~