Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 19
Hello all. This discussion sounds about like the same one we were having 30 or 40 years ago with a lot of the same players. Have a good day all. Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 22, 2024, at 1:06 PM, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Monitor/display suggestions? (Peter Miles) 2. Re: Monitor/display suggestions? (Refik Telhan) 3. Re: Monitor/display suggestions? (Refik Telhan) 4. Re: Monitor/display suggestions? (Henry Davis) 5. Re: Monitor/display suggestions? (Refik Telhan) 6. Re: Monitor/display suggestions? (Andrew Rodney) 7. Re: Monitor/display suggestions? (Andrew Rodney) 8. Re: Monitor/display suggestions? (Henry Davis)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 04:25:25 +0000 From: Peter Miles <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz> To: Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com>, "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Message-ID: <SYBPR01MB652785FC202BD99F2FFA4A32DC312@SYBPR01MB6527.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Hi Refik. Thanks for those links. Very interesting. I see in the article.. ?the pitfalls of wide gamut displays?, https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451, Johan Bergquist writes ?As explained by Kwak and Whitehead, the only way to reduce OM (observer metamerism) and simultaneously maintain a large WCG (wide color gamut) is to use multi-chromatic displays?for example, displays with additional emitters beyond RGB, such as cyan (RGBC). Thus, Gary Feather?s article ?Multi-Chromatic Ultrawide Color Gamut, Full-Color Range Systems? describes direct-view LED wall and projection display systems based on RGBC and RGBCY + emerald.?
Thanks Peter Miles
From: Refik Telhan via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> ID Magazine (the quarterly Journal of the Society for Information Display) has dedicated a whole issue to this topic:
?Understanding Wide Color Gamut Displays? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 (free access)
Johan Bergquist?s article ?Measuring Subjective Differences Objectively? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 (free access)
is about a newly defined metric, the ?Observer Metameric Mismatch Index? (OMMI).
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Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 11:36:47 +0300 From: Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> To: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Cc: waynebretl <waynebretl@cox.net>, "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Message-ID: <0D191A42-37C4-4C84-8814-72545B4D1A4C@icloud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hi Andrew,
The graphic arts industry covers a wide area in terms of use cases for computer displays. I am particularly targeting the displays used for ?soft proofing? four-color process printing. The related colorspace only goes beyond the sRGB gamut in the Cyan region. When gamuts of real images are checked against the sRGB gamut, you will see that very few images have colors that actually beyond the gamut of the display. The calibrated monitors of the early 2000s were all sRGB. Some are still used at reduced luminance levels. I have seen some in action even at 60 or 70 nits. They were successfully serving as platforms for sharing color information and appearance.
In the past, in a typical prepress department the leading color editor had two monitors: one standard and the other wide color gamut. All incoming RGB data is checked/edited/corrected and converted to CMYK at this point. The editor would then do final CMYK editing on the standard device. Approval process also takes place on this device. The rest of the department responsible for the making of press-neady PDF files always used calibrated sRGB ?displays.
The photography world where the RGB images come to life requires the use of wider gamuts. The OMMI will simply help the user to pick to right device for the purpose. The widening of the color gamut has long been marketed as a panacea for all problems. This is not the case; while widening of the color gamut renders more colors, it also introduces an increasing amount observer metameric mismatch.
Refik Telhan
From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 02:59 To: "rtelhan@icloud.com" <rtelhan@icloud.com> Cc: waynebretl <waynebretl@cox.net>, "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
On Mar 21, 2024, at 5:29?PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote:
Hi,
During the days when soft proofing displays were only able to cover sRGB, a consensus among most of the observers could be reached relatively easily.
There is no way I?d go back to an sRGB gamut display simply due to observer differences/metamerism. I only capture raw data, encode it into a far larger color gamut (ProPhoto RGB), and output it to devices that greatly exceed sRGB color gamut. I want to see those colors that fall outside sRGB that I have captured and can output (and soft proof). I?m not interested in throwing out the baby with the bathwater due to the ?issues? you present. Others may. I would love to see wider gamut display technology. The display is my window onto my RGB numbers.
Andrew Rodney
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Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 12:00:34 +0300 From: Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> To: Peter Miles <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz>, "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Message-ID: <AA38A4E5-B47B-4976-95AC-DBADD8C66A4C@icloud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hi Peter,
A multi-primary display is probably the only the solution the scientific community is offering for a better OMMI at wider color gamut.
?Reducing Observer Metamerism in Wide-Gamut Multi-Primary Displays? by David L. Long and Mark D. Fairchild is one such attempt.
https://s3.cad.rit.edu/cadgallery_production/storage/media/uploads/faculty-f...
There are more. While this approach will be an overkill for managing process color printing. It really makes sense when designing a laser projection system for movie theatres.
Refik Telhan
From: Peter Miles <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz> Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 07:25 To: "rtelhan@icloud.com" <rtelhan@icloud.com>, "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
Hi Refik.
Thanks for those links. Very interesting.
I see in the article.. ?the pitfalls of wide gamut displays?, https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451, Johan Bergquist writes ?As explained by Kwak and Whitehead, the only way to reduce OM (observer metamerism) and simultaneously maintain a large WCG (wide color gamut) is to use multi-chromatic displays?for example, displays with additional emitters beyond RGB, such as cyan (RGBC). Thus, Gary Feather?s article ?Multi-Chromatic Ultrawide Color Gamut, Full-Color Range Systems? describes direct-view LED wall and projection display systems based on RGBC and RGBCY + emerald.?
Thanks
Peter Miles
From: Refik Telhan via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>
ID Magazine (the quarterly Journal of the Society for Information Display) has dedicated a whole issue to this topic:
?Understanding Wide Color Gamut Displays? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 (free access)
Johan Bergquist?s article ?Measuring Subjective Differences Objectively? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 (free access)
is about a newly defined metric, the ?Observer Metameric Mismatch Index? (OMMI).
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 09:11:15 -0400 From: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net> To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Message-ID: <B84DCCA9-6376-4558-ABF5-B56930E4E63B@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
There is great variation in human vision - it cannot be ?reduced?. Working only one side of an equation doesn?t lead to a solution. However, there may be a way to ?reduce? OM . . . ?quantify" the viewer.
Test the perception of those who intend to work in the field and place those applicants who make the higher grades.
It is discrimination of a sort and some group will surely claim to be ?injured? - but it is a solution. Vision testing is required in a number of professional occupations.
Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 12:25 AM, Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Hi Refik. Thanks for those links. Very interesting. I see in the article.. ?the pitfalls of wide gamut displays?, https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451, Johan Bergquist writes ?As explained by Kwak and Whitehead, the only way to reduce OM (observer metamerism) and simultaneously maintain a large WCG (wide color gamut) is to use multi-chromatic displays?for example, displays with additional emitters beyond RGB, such as cyan (RGBC). Thus, Gary Feather?s article ?Multi-Chromatic Ultrawide Color Gamut, Full-Color Range Systems? describes direct-view LED wall and projection display systems based on RGBC and RGBCY + emerald.?
Thanks Peter Miles
From: Refik Telhan via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> ID Magazine (the quarterly Journal of the Society for Information Display) has dedicated a whole issue to this topic:
?Understanding Wide Color Gamut Displays? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 (free access)
Johan Bergquist?s article ?Measuring Subjective Differences Objectively? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 (free access)
is about a newly defined metric, the ?Observer Metameric Mismatch Index? (OMMI).
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 16:34:40 +0300 From: Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> To: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net>, <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Message-ID: <92940518-B682-4DA3-A7C6-3C979C1F5F9C@icloud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hi Henry,
IMHO, this would not be politically correct. Classifying people may implicitly mean that some do not have ?normal? vision. Measuring the eyes of individuals and calculating their specific CMFs would probably not be an easy task.
However, computer displays can be classifed quite easily by a series of spectral measurements. Technically, all calibration/profiling applications for computer displays can be enhanced to include such functionality.
Refik Telhan
?-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>
Reply-To: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>>
Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 16:1
To: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>
Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
There is great variation in human vision - it cannot be ?reduced?. Working only one side of an equation doesn?t lead to a solution. However, there may be a way to ?reduce? OM . . . ?quantify" the viewer.
Test the perception of those who intend to work in the field and place those applicants who make the higher grades.
It is discrimination of a sort and some group will surely claim to be ?injured? - but it is a solution. Vision testing is required in a number of professional occupations.
Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 12:25 AM, Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
Hi Refik.
Thanks for those links. Very interesting.
I see in the article.. ?the pitfalls of wide gamut displays?, https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451>, Johan Bergquist writes ?As explained by Kwak and Whitehead, the only way to reduce OM (observer metamerism) and simultaneously maintain a large WCG (wide color gamut) is to use multi-chromatic displays?for example, displays with additional emitters beyond RGB, such as cyan (RGBC). Thus, Gary Feather?s article ?Multi-Chromatic Ultrawide Color Gamut, Full-Color Range Systems? describes direct-view LED wall and projection display systems based on RGBC and RGBCY + emerald.?
Thanks
Peter Miles
From: Refik Telhan via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>
ID Magazine (the quarterly Journal of the Society for Information Display) has dedicated a whole issue to this topic:
?Understanding Wide Color Gamut Displays? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1> (free access)
Johan Bergquist?s article ?Measuring Subjective Differences Objectively? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453> (free access)
is about a newly defined metric, the ?Observer Metameric Mismatch Index? (OMMI).
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Message: 6 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 09:09:19 -0600 From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> To: "Steve J." <sj9000@comcast.net> Cc: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Message-ID: <0593D94E-8C7D-4858-BAC0-92E27ECC2549@digitaldog.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Wider than Adobe RGB (1998), for sure! This is why I encode into a very wide color Working Space that my raw converter happens to also use in terms of color gamut.
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
On Mar 21, 2024, at 7:55?PM, Steve J. via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Like how wide a gamut?
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Message: 7 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 10:10:36 -0600 From: Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Message-ID: <7811B5C1-4FE2-46D9-B4F6-9E40E79572BF@digitaldog.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On Mar 22, 2024, at 2:36?AM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote:
The widening of the color gamut has long been marketed as a panacea for all problems.
I can?t speak to a marketing panacea, but I?m sorry, no problems to report. If you have data of wide spread problems being reported by users with wide gamut display, I?ll be happy to examine your evidence.
On Mar 22, 2024, at 2:36?AM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote: This is not the case; while widening of the color gamut renders more colors, it also introduces an increasing amount observer metameric mismatch.
More colors, not necessarily. That?s an attribute of the encoding (bit depth) of numbers which may not be colors (or maybe differing numbers that are the same color). A wider range of colors, yes, and that, for many, isn?t a panacea or a problem.
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
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Message: 8 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 14:05:42 -0400 From: Henry Davis <DAVISHR@BELLSOUTH.NET> To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Message-ID: <52703C8D-FD38-4A94-B604-0125902F2DA7@BELLSOUTH.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Refic,
The truth is the truth - politically correct or not vision varies between individuals, and, it has nothing to do with the value of the person. I?d say that some of the most acclaimed painters of past centuries didn?t have ?normal? vision and their work is proof of that.
When work involves color, individual differences in perception cannot be solved by ignoring it. It also cannot be solved by somehow classifying the object being viewed. The observer is the issue.
Not an easy task? A basic vision test can quickly spot problems with color perception. It's a very easy test and would separate out the most deficient applicants for other jobs, jobs for which they would have a better chance of success. How is that not a very good thing? Mature adults don't have a problem with this, they don't make themselves into a victim over it.
More refined tests could become an ongoing ?training? program allowing observers to discover their weak points and become aware of situations where they might seek out other opinions. Have you never sought out another?s opinion about a color? Color workers do that all the time - it?s what they do, and after that someone else checks off the project boxes and puts their name on the line. At that point there is agreement.
You would hire a color-blind person to do color work so as to be politically correct? Would you take a flight with a legally blind pilot? Classifying airplanes to account for it isn?t the solution.
If I were hiring a person to do color work I would first rely on a basic vision test and not a classification of the object bering viewed. It is the person doing the viewing (Observer Metamerism not the Observed). I cannot help but wonder why your focus is on the other side of the equation, the side where there is no OM.
If you could explain this in a few words with simple language and without links to studies that would be nice. I?m sure I?m missing something that is obvious but I don?t know what it is. Therefore please keep it simple and brief, not wasting your time. Thank you.
Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 9:34 AM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>> wrote:
Hi Henry,
IMHO, this would not be politically correct. Classifying people may implicitly mean that some do not have ?normal? vision. Measuring the eyes of individuals and calculating their specific CMFs would probably not be an easy task.
However, computer displays can be classifed quite easily by a series of spectral measurements. Technically, all calibration/profiling applications for computer displays can be enhanced to include such functionality.
Refik Telhan
?-----Original Message----- From: Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> Reply-To: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>>> Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 16:1 To: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
There is great variation in human vision - it cannot be ?reduced?. Working only one side of an equation doesn?t lead to a solution. However, there may be a way to ?reduce? OM . . . ?quantify" the viewer.
Test the perception of those who intend to work in the field and place those applicants who make the higher grades.
It is discrimination of a sort and some group will surely claim to be ?injured? - but it is a solution. Vision testing is required in a number of professional occupations.
Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 12:25 AM, Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com><mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> wrote:
Hi Refik. Thanks for those links. Very interesting. I see in the article.. ?the pitfalls of wide gamut displays?, https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451>>, Johan Bergquist writes ?As explained by Kwak and Whitehead, the only way to reduce OM (observer metamerism) and simultaneously maintain a large WCG (wide color gamut) is to use multi-chromatic displays?for example, displays with additional emitters beyond RGB, such as cyan (RGBC). Thus, Gary Feather?s article ?Multi-Chromatic Ultrawide Color Gamut, Full-Color Range Systems? describes direct-view LED wall and projection display systems based on RGBC and RGBCY + emerald.?
Thanks Peter Miles
From: Refik Telhan via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> ID Magazine (the quarterly Journal of the Society for Information Display) has dedicated a whole issue to this topic:
?Understanding Wide Color Gamut Displays? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1>> (free access)
Johan Bergquist?s article ?Measuring Subjective Differences Objectively? https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453>> (free access)
is about a newly defined metric, the ?Observer Metameric Mismatch Index? (OMMI).
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End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 21, Issue 19 ***********************************************
On Mar 22, 2024, at 2:53 PM, Gerry Yaeger via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> wrote:
Hello all. This discussion sounds about like the same one we were having 30 or 40 years ago with a lot of the same players. Have a good day all. Sent from my iPhone
With enough memory loss it all seems brand new! Henry Davis
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Henry Davis