Re: Monitor White Point Confusion
To Graeme: thanks for the explanation. Now I have a better understanding why the softproofs in Photoshop rarely have any practical use. To Claas: Would you mind suggesting us some softproofing applications? The only one I know about is iColor Proof, which wasn’t even released officially by Quato, just before they ceased operation. Kind regards, Péter Colorcom
On 2019. Mar 6., at 21:00, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users@lists.apple.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com
You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner@lists.apple.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of colorsync-users digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 5 (Louis Dina) 2. Re: Monitor White Point Confusion (Graeme Gill) 3. Re: Monitor White Point Confusion (Claas Bickeböller) 4. CFP Open - CIC27 21-25 October 2019 | Paris, France (Roberta Morehouse)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 14:15:27 -0600 From: Louis Dina <lou@loudina.com> To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 5 Message-ID: <CAOTaQcJUN=GHgBV+DNPcXbSbF7o3N3BbUxUUOXgSKAr=tw38=Q@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Peter Miles and Peter Nagy,
Thanks, you both confirmed what Refik (thank you) shared and what I have just learned. This was always a bit of a muddle to me, but finally it is clear. I've been using 5600-5800K monitor WP for years with great soft proofing success, and now I know why it works so well, and why 6500K doesn't.
Mystery solved! Thanks everyone.
Lou
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 04:26:58 +0000 From: "Miles, Peter" <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz> To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion Message-ID: <53F81896-AC30-4325-8C52-8A9874C4CD95@massey.ac.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Lou. I can confirm what Refik is saying from having made on-screen measurements• using an i1pro and Spectrashop a few years back.
Regards Peter Miles
*A few years back I wanted to clarify in my mind the same question Lou asked. So I measured the on-screen colour of a soft proof in photoshop when the 'simulate paper color’ was on. I compared that to measurements I made of the display white point. I did this on a profiled Eizo at a 3 different white point settings .
From the measurements it was clear that the on-screen colour of the soft-proof (with ‘Simulate Paper Color’ on) was different for each display white point used. And from comparing the ab plots in Spectrashop it was also clear that the on-screen colour of the soft-proof (with ‘Simulate Paper Color' on) was being shifted ‘relative' to the white point of the display.
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 08:46:00 +0100 From: Nagy Péter <peter@colorcom.hu> To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion Message-ID: <72488E8B-6BE0-4DBF-8332-9776FADD134A@colorcom.hu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Lou,
What you would like to do is IMHO possible in theory, but you have to take into account the capabilities of the math model and the devices you use. If you try to mimic the actual printed piece on your screen (meaning you switch to soft-proof mode in Photoshop) you’re working in the 8-bit realm of the current graphics software and device drivers. If you’re far away from the target (eg. on a screen calibrated to a white point of 6500K) the color management engine has to perform a large correction to achieve the desired result. Measurement and profiling errors add up, and the color you see on screen will not be perfect.
On the other hand, your original approach (calibrating to 5700-5800) is almost perfect, as that’s the ‘perceived’ white point of today’s OBA-stuffed coated papers under 5000K lighting. In this case, the color management engine performs a relatively small conversion on the white point, so the errors will be smaller or negligible.
Until we don’t have 10 or more bit ‘deep’ device drivers and monitors (and work with 16 bit images in Photoshop), the best you can do is to calibrate to the closest perceived white. Another consideration might be to employ displays which are more conservative on the contrast; we don’t need 1:10000 for soft proofing.
Kind regards,
Peter Nagy
------------------------------
**********************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 12:53:42 +1100 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> To: ColorSync <ColorSync-Users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion Message-ID: <817d2e33-6f5b-fca9-8e93-f3ff47a15943@argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Nagy Péter wrote:
Hi,
What you would like to do is IMHO possible in theory, but you have to take into account the capabilities of the math model and the devices you use. If you try to mimic the actual printed piece on your screen (meaning you switch to soft-proof mode in Photoshop) you’re working in the 8-bit realm of the current graphics software and device drivers.
It's worse than that though. AFAIK, Photoshop, ICC and the desktop conspire against using display profiles in Absolute Colorimetric intent, AKA soft proofing side by side mode.
1) As I understand it, Photoshop's proofing mode only uses a pseudo-absolute mode. The print profile is set to Absolute colorimetric while the display profile is left in Relative Colorimetric. So this gives you an impression of the white shift due to the paper color, but adapted to the white point of the display. It isn't actually attempting an absolute colorimetric match.
2) ICC V4 disables display profile Absolute Colorimetric intent by mandating the white point tag be set to D50. So a standard CMM won't render the display output with the absolute intent, ruining any attempt at an absolute colorimetric match.
3) Even ignoring 1) and 2), if your desktop and application have their own GUI elements showing, they will be rendered relative to the native display white point, and so will upset your adaptation state, and make the proofing output appear too yellow.
So given all these problems, the only practical approach is to calibrate the display so that it has a white point that matches the paper white. That way a Relative Colorimetric rendering will work for a soft proof side by side comparison.
Cheers, Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 07:44:22 +0100 From: Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name> To: ColorSync <ColorSync-Users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion Message-ID: <A778E3F9-B5D9-4C1D-BD0F-50D87123C375@bickeboeller.name> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi,
I can recommend to read the Fogra Softproof Handbook
https://www.fogra.org/index.php?menuid=626&reporeid=200&getlang=en
A lot of theory with a lot of practical advise.
Am 06.03.2019 um 02:53 schrieb Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com>:
Nagy Péter wrote:
On the other hand, your original approach (calibrating to 5700-5800) is almost perfect, as that’s the ‘perceived’ white point of today’s OBA-stuffed coated papers under 5000K lighting.
The reason for this is that most instruments which are usually used are simply inaccurate in measuring CCT. Using an accurate instrument an adjustment of the monitor WP to the same CCT as your viewing cabinet gives a visual match. But these instruments are out of budget of a normal end user.
So given all these problems, the only practical approach is to calibrate the display so that it has a white point that matches the paper white. That way a Relative Colorimetric rendering will work for a soft proof side by side comparison.
Using Photoshop I agree. There are dedicated softproofing applications around where the absolute approach works though.
Best regards
Claas
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 19:21:32 +0000 From: Roberta Morehouse <RMorehouse@imaging.org> To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: CFP Open - CIC27 21-25 October 2019 | Paris, France Message-ID: <5E4BB1820DF48448AD0F4B07705195925FDD9706@us0-sb01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
The IS&T Twenty-seventh Color and Imaging Conference (CIC27), 21-25 October 2019, is the premier annual technical gathering for scientists, technologists, and engineers working in the areas of color science and systems, and their application to color imaging. This year, CIC27 is collocated with MCS'19, the 21st International Symposium on Multispectral Colour Science.
Participants represent disciplines ranging from psychophysics, optical physics, image processing, and color science to graphic arts, systems engineering, and hardware and software development. While a broad mix of professional interests is the hallmark of this conference, the focus is color.
If you are involved in this diverse field, submit your research findings and ideas that support the development and success of the next wave of innovations in color science.
21-25 October 2019 | Paris, France Learn more @ www.imaging.org/color
TOPICS: Color Perception Capture, Display, and Print Material Appearance and Color Color in Illumination and Lighting Color Theory Image Quality Multispectral Imaging Specific Color Applications
SUBMISSION OPTIONS: Journal of Imaging Science and Technology (JIST-first) Deadline: 24 March 2019
Conference Proceedings Paper Deadline: 7 April 2019 Final papers are due in electronic format no later than 3 September 2019.
CALL FOR WORKSHOPS & SHORT COURSES - Deadline: 7 April 2019
Workshops are scheduled on Tuesday, 22 October for 2.5 hours Email: color@imaging.org w/last name in the subject line Subject: CIC27 Workshop Proposal
Short Courses are scheduled on Monday, 21 October and Tuesday, 22 October for 2-4 hours Email: color@imaging.org w/last name in the subject line Subject: CIC27 Short Course Proposal
. Topics related to subjects included in the conference topics . Provide a topic description, format (i.e., short papers; panel discussion; hands-on, etc.), and a list of speakers/moderators (confirmed or potential)
Questions? color@imaging.org
Connect with our community! Twitter @ImagingOrg #CIC27 - Subscribe to our Color and Imaging list LinkedIn: IS&T Color and Imaging Conference (CIC) group
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ colorsync-users mailing list colorsync-users@lists.apple.com https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users
------------------------------
End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 6 **********************************************
Dear Péter, I don’t know the development status of the solutions but I know that e.g. Remote Director, basICColor Smartt, Wobe Team proofServer and Dalim Dialogue are used successfully in Prepress and at Press. So this is neither a complete list nor a suggestion. Fogra tested some systems intensively. See: https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv... <https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html&mv_id=2&onemv=2&menuid=216&template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html&mv_id=2&onemv=2&menuid=216&getlang=en&var1=&page=1> Best regards Claas
Am 07.03.2019 um 08:33 schrieb Nagy Péter <peter@colorcom.hu>:
To Graeme: thanks for the explanation. Now I have a better understanding why the softproofs in Photoshop rarely have any practical use.
To Claas: Would you mind suggesting us some softproofing applications? The only one I know about is iColor Proof, which wasn’t even released officially by Quato, just before they ceased operation.
Kind regards,
Péter Colorcom
On 2019. Mar 6., at 21:00, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Send colorsync-users mailing list submissions to colorsync-users@lists.apple.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com
You can reach the person managing the list at colorsync-users-owner@lists.apple.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of colorsync-users digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 5 (Louis Dina) 2. Re: Monitor White Point Confusion (Graeme Gill) 3. Re: Monitor White Point Confusion (Claas Bickeböller) 4. CFP Open - CIC27 21-25 October 2019 | Paris, France (Roberta Morehouse)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 14:15:27 -0600 From: Louis Dina <lou@loudina.com> To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 5 Message-ID: <CAOTaQcJUN=GHgBV+DNPcXbSbF7o3N3BbUxUUOXgSKAr=tw38=Q@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Peter Miles and Peter Nagy,
Thanks, you both confirmed what Refik (thank you) shared and what I have just learned. This was always a bit of a muddle to me, but finally it is clear. I've been using 5600-5800K monitor WP for years with great soft proofing success, and now I know why it works so well, and why 6500K doesn't.
Mystery solved! Thanks everyone.
Lou
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 04:26:58 +0000 From: "Miles, Peter" <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz> To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion Message-ID: <53F81896-AC30-4325-8C52-8A9874C4CD95@massey.ac.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Lou. I can confirm what Refik is saying from having made on-screen measurements• using an i1pro and Spectrashop a few years back.
Regards Peter Miles
*A few years back I wanted to clarify in my mind the same question Lou asked. So I measured the on-screen colour of a soft proof in photoshop when the 'simulate paper color’ was on. I compared that to measurements I made of the display white point. I did this on a profiled Eizo at a 3 different white point settings .
From the measurements it was clear that the on-screen colour of the soft-proof (with ‘Simulate Paper Color’ on) was different for each display white point used. And from comparing the ab plots in Spectrashop it was also clear that the on-screen colour of the soft-proof (with ‘Simulate Paper Color' on) was being shifted ‘relative' to the white point of the display.
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2019 08:46:00 +0100 From: Nagy Péter <peter@colorcom.hu> To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion Message-ID: <72488E8B-6BE0-4DBF-8332-9776FADD134A@colorcom.hu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Lou,
What you would like to do is IMHO possible in theory, but you have to take into account the capabilities of the math model and the devices you use. If you try to mimic the actual printed piece on your screen (meaning you switch to soft-proof mode in Photoshop) you’re working in the 8-bit realm of the current graphics software and device drivers. If you’re far away from the target (eg. on a screen calibrated to a white point of 6500K) the color management engine has to perform a large correction to achieve the desired result. Measurement and profiling errors add up, and the color you see on screen will not be perfect.
On the other hand, your original approach (calibrating to 5700-5800) is almost perfect, as that’s the ‘perceived’ white point of today’s OBA-stuffed coated papers under 5000K lighting. In this case, the color management engine performs a relatively small conversion on the white point, so the errors will be smaller or negligible.
Until we don’t have 10 or more bit ‘deep’ device drivers and monitors (and work with 16 bit images in Photoshop), the best you can do is to calibrate to the closest perceived white. Another consideration might be to employ displays which are more conservative on the contrast; we don’t need 1:10000 for soft proofing.
Kind regards,
Peter Nagy
------------------------------
**********************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 12:53:42 +1100 From: Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> To: ColorSync <ColorSync-Users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion Message-ID: <817d2e33-6f5b-fca9-8e93-f3ff47a15943@argyllcms.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Nagy Péter wrote:
Hi,
What you would like to do is IMHO possible in theory, but you have to take into account the capabilities of the math model and the devices you use. If you try to mimic the actual printed piece on your screen (meaning you switch to soft-proof mode in Photoshop) you’re working in the 8-bit realm of the current graphics software and device drivers.
It's worse than that though. AFAIK, Photoshop, ICC and the desktop conspire against using display profiles in Absolute Colorimetric intent, AKA soft proofing side by side mode.
1) As I understand it, Photoshop's proofing mode only uses a pseudo-absolute mode. The print profile is set to Absolute colorimetric while the display profile is left in Relative Colorimetric. So this gives you an impression of the white shift due to the paper color, but adapted to the white point of the display. It isn't actually attempting an absolute colorimetric match.
2) ICC V4 disables display profile Absolute Colorimetric intent by mandating the white point tag be set to D50. So a standard CMM won't render the display output with the absolute intent, ruining any attempt at an absolute colorimetric match.
3) Even ignoring 1) and 2), if your desktop and application have their own GUI elements showing, they will be rendered relative to the native display white point, and so will upset your adaptation state, and make the proofing output appear too yellow.
So given all these problems, the only practical approach is to calibrate the display so that it has a white point that matches the paper white. That way a Relative Colorimetric rendering will work for a soft proof side by side comparison.
Cheers, Graeme Gill.
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 07:44:22 +0100 From: Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name> To: ColorSync <ColorSync-Users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Monitor White Point Confusion Message-ID: <A778E3F9-B5D9-4C1D-BD0F-50D87123C375@bickeboeller.name> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi,
I can recommend to read the Fogra Softproof Handbook
https://www.fogra.org/index.php?menuid=626&reporeid=200&getlang=en
A lot of theory with a lot of practical advise.
Am 06.03.2019 um 02:53 schrieb Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com>:
Nagy Péter wrote:
On the other hand, your original approach (calibrating to 5700-5800) is almost perfect, as that’s the ‘perceived’ white point of today’s OBA-stuffed coated papers under 5000K lighting.
The reason for this is that most instruments which are usually used are simply inaccurate in measuring CCT. Using an accurate instrument an adjustment of the monitor WP to the same CCT as your viewing cabinet gives a visual match. But these instruments are out of budget of a normal end user.
So given all these problems, the only practical approach is to calibrate the display so that it has a white point that matches the paper white. That way a Relative Colorimetric rendering will work for a soft proof side by side comparison.
Using Photoshop I agree. There are dedicated softproofing applications around where the absolute approach works though.
Best regards
Claas
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 19:21:32 +0000 From: Roberta Morehouse <RMorehouse@imaging.org> To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: CFP Open - CIC27 21-25 October 2019 | Paris, France Message-ID: <5E4BB1820DF48448AD0F4B07705195925FDD9706@us0-sb01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
The IS&T Twenty-seventh Color and Imaging Conference (CIC27), 21-25 October 2019, is the premier annual technical gathering for scientists, technologists, and engineers working in the areas of color science and systems, and their application to color imaging. This year, CIC27 is collocated with MCS'19, the 21st International Symposium on Multispectral Colour Science.
Participants represent disciplines ranging from psychophysics, optical physics, image processing, and color science to graphic arts, systems engineering, and hardware and software development. While a broad mix of professional interests is the hallmark of this conference, the focus is color.
If you are involved in this diverse field, submit your research findings and ideas that support the development and success of the next wave of innovations in color science.
21-25 October 2019 | Paris, France Learn more @ www.imaging.org/color
TOPICS: Color Perception Capture, Display, and Print Material Appearance and Color Color in Illumination and Lighting Color Theory Image Quality Multispectral Imaging Specific Color Applications
SUBMISSION OPTIONS: Journal of Imaging Science and Technology (JIST-first) Deadline: 24 March 2019
Conference Proceedings Paper Deadline: 7 April 2019 Final papers are due in electronic format no later than 3 September 2019.
CALL FOR WORKSHOPS & SHORT COURSES - Deadline: 7 April 2019
Workshops are scheduled on Tuesday, 22 October for 2.5 hours Email: color@imaging.org w/last name in the subject line Subject: CIC27 Workshop Proposal
Short Courses are scheduled on Monday, 21 October and Tuesday, 22 October for 2-4 hours Email: color@imaging.org w/last name in the subject line Subject: CIC27 Short Course Proposal
. Topics related to subjects included in the conference topics . Provide a topic description, format (i.e., short papers; panel discussion; hands-on, etc.), and a list of speakers/moderators (confirmed or potential)
Questions? color@imaging.org
Connect with our community! Twitter @ImagingOrg #CIC27 - Subscribe to our Color and Imaging list LinkedIn: IS&T Color and Imaging Conference (CIC) group
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ colorsync-users mailing list colorsync-users@lists.apple.com https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users
------------------------------
End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 6 **********************************************
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/lists%40bickeboeller...
This email sent to lists@bickeboeller.name
Dear Claas, thanks for the info and the systems list. One can say, there must be a market niche for a dedicated softproofing app — independent of the expensive server-client solutions. Alternatively we have to persuade Adobe to take a closer look on the topic, and integrate something usable into Photoshop. Kind regards, Péter Colorcom
On 2019. Mar 7., at 8:43, Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name> wrote:
Dear Péter,
I don’t know the development status of the solutions but I know that e.g. Remote Director, basICColor Smartt, Wobe Team proofServer and Dalim Dialogue are used successfully in Prepress and at Press. So this is neither a complete list nor a suggestion.
Fogra tested some systems intensively.
See: https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv... <https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html&mv_id=2&onemv=2&menuid=216&template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html&mv_id=2&onemv=2&menuid=216&getlang=en&var1=&page=1>
Best regards
Claas
They have a very practical use and do produce a very close matching to a print WHEN on calibrates the display for a visual match! Nothing earth shattering about this concept. As Graeme specified rather clearly: "So given all these problems, the only practical approach is to calibrate the display so that it has a white point that matches the paper white". Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
On Mar 7, 2019, at 12:33 AM, Nagy Péter <peter@colorcom.hu> wrote:
To Graeme: thanks for the explanation. Now I have a better understanding why the softproofs in Photoshop rarely have any practical use.
participants (3)
-
Andrew Rodney
-
Claas Bickeböller
-
Nagy Péter