Proofing media (was Re: Monitor White Point Confusion)
Thanks to all for this discussion. I have learned a lot. Ben’s comment also reminded me of a question I have wanted to pose…
On Mar 7, 2019, at 9:17 AM, Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com <mailto:ben@trumpetpower.com>> wrote:
If you can’t make proof prints on the same stock as the final, at least get something with a similar amount of OBA.
For the past few years we have been using Epson’s Proofing Paper White Semimatte as a (relatively) neutral media for our Fiery-driven Epson SC P9000 proofing system. I am finding that increasingly, our clients’s files are being printed on paper stock loaded with optical brightening agents, so our “neutral” media appears quite “yellowish” compared to the final press output. I’m beginning to think that media that measures “neutral” is now anachronistic when proofing for publications. So my question is, what might be a more appropriate paper for general-purpose proofing - recommendations gladly accepted! Thanks, John JWL Images
Hi John, Here is a short list: EFI Proofing Paper 8245OBA Semimatt M0: 95.62|0.77|-3.20 M1: 95.74|0.93|-4.49 GMG ProofPaper Semimatte 250 OBA M0: 97.17|0.31|-3.24 M1: 97.30|0.48|-4.72 Felix Schoeller P51311 TRUST PREMIUM SATIN 200 M0: 95.75|0.85|-3.28 M1: 95.86|1.00|-4.49 Mitsubishi Papers SM 2551 P M0: 96.00|0.92|-3.58 M1: 96.11|1.11|-4.91 These are measured on a white backing with an i1Pro2. Some of them have slightly different values in their datasheets. I have profiled and used two of them. I have physical samples of the remaining two. They really come close to the real thing, Best, Refik Telhan On 07.03.2019 20:56, "colorsync-users on behalf of John Lund" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com on behalf of john@jwlimages.com> wrote: Thanks to all for this discussion. I have learned a lot. Ben’s comment also reminded me of a question I have wanted to pose… > On Mar 7, 2019, at 9:17 AM, Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com <mailto:ben@trumpetpower.com>> wrote: > > If you can’t make proof prints on the same stock as the final, at least get something with a similar amount of OBA. For the past few years we have been using Epson’s Proofing Paper White Semimatte as a (relatively) neutral media for our Fiery-driven Epson SC P9000 proofing system. I am finding that increasingly, our clients’s files are being printed on paper stock loaded with optical brightening agents, so our “neutral” media appears quite “yellowish” compared to the final press output. I’m beginning to think that media that measures “neutral” is now anachronistic when proofing for publications. So my question is, what might be a more appropriate paper for general-purpose proofing - recommendations gladly accepted! Thanks, John JWL Images _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rtelhan%40icloud.com This email sent to rtelhan@icloud.com
Hi Refik, Thanks very much for this. It will help a lot as I start my search. Regards, John
On Mar 7, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote:
Hi John,
Here is a short list:
EFI Proofing Paper 8245OBA Semimatt M0: 95.62|0.77|-3.20 M1: 95.74|0.93|-4.49
GMG ProofPaper Semimatte 250 OBA M0: 97.17|0.31|-3.24 M1: 97.30|0.48|-4.72
Felix Schoeller P51311 TRUST PREMIUM SATIN 200 M0: 95.75|0.85|-3.28 M1: 95.86|1.00|-4.49
Mitsubishi Papers SM 2551 P M0: 96.00|0.92|-3.58 M1: 96.11|1.11|-4.91
These are measured on a white backing with an i1Pro2. Some of them have slightly different values in their datasheets. I have profiled and used two of them. I have physical samples of the remaining two. They really come close to the real thing,
Best,
Refik Telhan
On 07.03.2019 20:56, "colorsync-users on behalf of John Lund" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com on behalf of john@jwlimages.com> wrote:
Thanks to all for this discussion. I have learned a lot. Ben’s comment also reminded me of a question I have wanted to pose…
> On Mar 7, 2019, at 9:17 AM, Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com <mailto:ben@trumpetpower.com>> wrote: > > If you can’t make proof prints on the same stock as the final, at least get something with a similar amount of OBA.
For the past few years we have been using Epson’s Proofing Paper White Semimatte as a (relatively) neutral media for our Fiery-driven Epson SC P9000 proofing system. I am finding that increasingly, our clients’s files are being printed on paper stock loaded with optical brightening agents, so our “neutral” media appears quite “yellowish” compared to the final press output. I’m beginning to think that media that measures “neutral” is now anachronistic when proofing for publications.
So my question is, what might be a more appropriate paper for general-purpose proofing - recommendations gladly accepted!
Thanks,
John JWL Images
Hi, Fogra certified papers is always a good starting point. You can filter by gloss level and OBA level. Here a filtered list of semimatte with few OBAs https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OB... <https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OBAKlasse_320=1&OBAClass_445=&mvcform_tag_gueltig_263=08&mvcform_monat_gueltig_263=03&mvcform_jahr_gueltig_263=2019&search_mv=&mv_submit=Find&mv_submit=Find&mv_id=11&extern_meta=x&menuid=143&onemv=11&template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html> Personally I got very good results using the P51311 from Schoeller for FOGRA51 proofs. BR Claas
Am 08.03.2019 um 01:23 schrieb John Lund <john@jwlimages.com>:
Hi Refik,
Thanks very much for this. It will help a lot as I start my search.
Regards,
John
On Mar 7, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote:
Hi John,
Here is a short list:
EFI Proofing Paper 8245OBA Semimatt M0: 95.62|0.77|-3.20 M1: 95.74|0.93|-4.49
GMG ProofPaper Semimatte 250 OBA M0: 97.17|0.31|-3.24 M1: 97.30|0.48|-4.72
Felix Schoeller P51311 TRUST PREMIUM SATIN 200 M0: 95.75|0.85|-3.28 M1: 95.86|1.00|-4.49
Mitsubishi Papers SM 2551 P M0: 96.00|0.92|-3.58 M1: 96.11|1.11|-4.91
These are measured on a white backing with an i1Pro2. Some of them have slightly different values in their datasheets. I have profiled and used two of them. I have physical samples of the remaining two. They really come close to the real thing,
Best,
Refik Telhan
On 07.03.2019 20:56, "colorsync-users on behalf of John Lund" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com on behalf of john@jwlimages.com> wrote:
Thanks to all for this discussion. I have learned a lot. Ben’s comment also reminded me of a question I have wanted to pose…
On Mar 7, 2019, at 9:17 AM, Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com <mailto:ben@trumpetpower.com>> wrote:
If you can’t make proof prints on the same stock as the final, at least get something with a similar amount of OBA.
For the past few years we have been using Epson’s Proofing Paper White Semimatte as a (relatively) neutral media for our Fiery-driven Epson SC P9000 proofing system. I am finding that increasingly, our clients’s files are being printed on paper stock loaded with optical brightening agents, so our “neutral” media appears quite “yellowish” compared to the final press output. I’m beginning to think that media that measures “neutral” is now anachronistic when proofing for publications.
So my question is, what might be a more appropriate paper for general-purpose proofing - recommendations gladly accepted!
Thanks,
John JWL Images
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Is the Felix Schoeller Trust line different from its normal paper catalog despite the identical numbers used in their description? If I go by the numbers only I see several papers where I measured OBA content and Fogra gives them a non-OBA quality spec. Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, piëzografie, giclée www.pigment-print.com On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:38 AM Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name> wrote:
Hi,
Fogra certified papers is always a good starting point. You can filter by gloss level and OBA level.
Here a filtered list of semimatte with few OBAs
https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OB... < https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OB...
Personally I got very good results using the P51311 from Schoeller for FOGRA51 proofs.
BR
Claas
Am 08.03.2019 um 01:23 schrieb John Lund <john@jwlimages.com>:
Hi Refik,
Thanks very much for this. It will help a lot as I start my search.
Regards,
John
On Mar 7, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote:
Hi John,
Here is a short list:
EFI Proofing Paper 8245OBA Semimatt M0: 95.62|0.77|-3.20 M1: 95.74|0.93|-4.49
GMG ProofPaper Semimatte 250 OBA M0: 97.17|0.31|-3.24 M1: 97.30|0.48|-4.72
Felix Schoeller P51311 TRUST PREMIUM SATIN 200 M0: 95.75|0.85|-3.28 M1: 95.86|1.00|-4.49
Mitsubishi Papers SM 2551 P M0: 96.00|0.92|-3.58 M1: 96.11|1.11|-4.91
These are measured on a white backing with an i1Pro2. Some of them have slightly different values in their datasheets. I have profiled and used two of them. I have physical samples of the remaining two. They really come close to the real thing,
Best,
Refik Telhan
On 07.03.2019 20:56, "colorsync-users on behalf of John Lund" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com on behalf of john@jwlimages.com> wrote:
Thanks to all for this discussion. I have learned a lot. Ben’s comment also reminded me of a question I have wanted to pose…
On Mar 7, 2019, at 9:17 AM, Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com <mailto: ben@trumpetpower.com>> wrote:
If you can’t make proof prints on the same stock as the final, at least get something with a similar amount of OBA.
For the past few years we have been using Epson’s Proofing Paper White Semimatte as a (relatively) neutral media for our Fiery-driven Epson SC P9000 proofing system. I am finding that increasingly, our clients’s files are being printed on paper stock loaded with optical brightening agents, so our “neutral” media appears quite “yellowish” compared to the final press output. I’m beginning to think that media that measures “neutral” is now anachronistic when proofing for publications.
So my question is, what might be a more appropriate paper for general-purpose proofing - recommendations gladly accepted!
Thanks,
John JWL Images
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Ernst, AFAIK Fogra follows the ISO 15397 levels. That is that a Delta Brightness (Brightness D65 - Brightness UVcut) ≤ 1 is regarded as OBA free. OBA free = 0 ≤ 1 Faint = 1 ≤ 4 Low = 4 ≤ 8 Moderate = 8 ≤ 14 High = 14 ≤ 25 There is no name for dB > 25 though these papers also exist. Best regards Claas
Am 08.03.2019 um 10:15 schrieb Ernst Dinkla <info@pigment-print.com>:
Is the Felix Schoeller Trust line different from its normal paper catalog despite the identical numbers used in their description?
If I go by the numbers only I see several papers where I measured OBA content and Fogra gives them a non-OBA quality spec.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, piëzografie, giclée www.pigment-print.com <http://www.pigment-print.com/>
On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:38 AM Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name <mailto:lists@bickeboeller.name>> wrote:
Hi,
Fogra certified papers is always a good starting point. You can filter by gloss level and OBA level.
Here a filtered list of semimatte with few OBAs
https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OB... <https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OBAKlasse_320=1&OBAClass_445=&mvcform_tag_gueltig_263=08&mvcform_monat_gueltig_263=03&mvcform_jahr_gueltig_263=2019&search_mv=&mv_submit=Find&mv_submit=Find&mv_id=11&extern_meta=x&menuid=143&onemv=11&template=mv%2Ftemplates%2Fmv_search_front_onemv.html> < https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OB... <https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OBAKlasse_320=1&OBAClass_445=&mvcform_tag_gueltig_263=08&mvcform_monat_gueltig_263=03&mvcform_jahr_gueltig_263=2019&search_mv=&mv_submit=Find&mv_submit=Find&mv_id=11&extern_meta=x&menuid=143&onemv=11&template=mv/templates/mv_search_front_onemv.html>
Personally I got very good results using the P51311 from Schoeller for FOGRA51 proofs.
BR
Claas
Am 08.03.2019 um 01:23 schrieb John Lund <john@jwlimages.com>:
Hi Refik,
Thanks very much for this. It will help a lot as I start my search.
Regards,
John
On Mar 7, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote:
Hi John,
Here is a short list:
EFI Proofing Paper 8245OBA Semimatt M0: 95.62|0.77|-3.20 M1: 95.74|0.93|-4.49
GMG ProofPaper Semimatte 250 OBA M0: 97.17|0.31|-3.24 M1: 97.30|0.48|-4.72
Felix Schoeller P51311 TRUST PREMIUM SATIN 200 M0: 95.75|0.85|-3.28 M1: 95.86|1.00|-4.49
Mitsubishi Papers SM 2551 P M0: 96.00|0.92|-3.58 M1: 96.11|1.11|-4.91
These are measured on a white backing with an i1Pro2. Some of them have slightly different values in their datasheets. I have profiled and used two of them. I have physical samples of the remaining two. They really come close to the real thing,
Best,
Refik Telhan
On 07.03.2019 20:56, "colorsync-users on behalf of John Lund" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com on behalf of john@jwlimages.com> wrote:
Thanks to all for this discussion. I have learned a lot. Ben’s comment also reminded me of a question I have wanted to pose…
On Mar 7, 2019, at 9:17 AM, Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com <mailto: ben@trumpetpower.com>> wrote:
If you can’t make proof prints on the same stock as the final, at least get something with a similar amount of OBA.
For the past few years we have been using Epson’s Proofing Paper White Semimatte as a (relatively) neutral media for our Fiery-driven Epson SC P9000 proofing system. I am finding that increasingly, our clients’s files are being printed on paper stock loaded with optical brightening agents, so our “neutral” media appears quite “yellowish” compared to the final press output. I’m beginning to think that media that measures “neutral” is now anachronistic when proofing for publications.
So my question is, what might be a more appropriate paper for general-purpose proofing - recommendations gladly accepted!
Thanks,
John JWL Images
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Hi Ernst, Felix Shoeller's Proof & Prepress substrates are all under the TRUST line. https://www.felix-schoeller.com/en_en/business-unit/photographic-digital-pri... Their FOGRA51 and FOGRA52 compliant products have "P" as prefix in their code numbers (and FOGRA39 compliant product code number start with "H"). Having received a full set of sample sheets for Proof & Press products from Felix Schoeller, I have measured each of the four FOGRA51 compliant papers, namely P51411 (glossy), P50311 (semimatte), P51311 (semimatte) and P50511 (matt). The relation between the M0 and M1 measurements indicate that the amount of OBAs mimic the real paper stocks. P50311 and P51311 are technically the same. The only difference between them is the grammage; P50311 is 202 gsm, whereas P51311 is 252. Best regards, Refik Telhan Light and Color Management Consultancy On 08.03.2019 12:15, "colorsync-users on behalf of Ernst Dinkla" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com on behalf of info@pigment-print.com> wrote: Is the Felix Schoeller Trust line different from its normal paper catalog despite the identical numbers used in their description? If I go by the numbers only, I see several papers where I measured OBA content and Fogra gives them a non-OBA quality spec. Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla Grafische Techniek Quad, piëzografie, giclée www.pigment-print.com On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:38 AM Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name> wrote: > > Hi, > > Fogra certified papers is always a good starting point. > You can filter by gloss level and OBA level. > > Here a filtered list of semimatte with few OBAs > > > https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OB... > < > https://www.fogra.org/plugin.php?Firma_105=&Substrat_106=&Papiertyp_107=1&OB... > > > > Personally I got very good results using the P51311 from Schoeller for > FOGRA51 proofs. > > BR > > Claas > > > Am 08.03.2019 um 01:23 schrieb John Lund <john@jwlimages.com>: > > > > Hi Refik, > > > > Thanks very much for this. It will help a lot as I start my search. > > > > Regards, > > > > John > > > > > >> On Mar 7, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi John, > >> > >> Here is a short list: > >> > >> EFI Proofing Paper 8245OBA Semimatt M0: > 95.62|0.77|-3.20 M1: 95.74|0.93|-4.49 > >> > >> GMG ProofPaper Semimatte 250 OBA M0: > 97.17|0.31|-3.24 M1: 97.30|0.48|-4.72 > >> > >> Felix Schoeller P51311 TRUST PREMIUM SATIN 200 M0: > 95.75|0.85|-3.28 M1: 95.86|1.00|-4.49 > >> > >> Mitsubishi Papers SM 2551 P > M0: 96.00|0.92|-3.58 M1: 96.11|1.11|-4.91 > >> > >> These are measured on a white backing with an i1Pro2. Some of them have > slightly different values in their datasheets. I have profiled and used > two of them. I have physical samples of the remaining two. They really come > close to the real thing, > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Refik Telhan > >> > >> On 07.03.2019 20:56, "colorsync-users on behalf of John Lund" > <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=icloud.com@lists.apple.com on behalf of > john@jwlimages.com> wrote: > >> > >> Thanks to all for this discussion. I have learned a lot. Ben’s > comment also reminded me of a question I have wanted to pose… > >> > >>> On Mar 7, 2019, at 9:17 AM, Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com <mailto: > ben@trumpetpower.com>> wrote: > >>> > >>> If you can’t make proof prints on the same stock as the final, at > least get something with a similar amount of OBA. > >> > >> For the past few years we have been using Epson’s Proofing Paper > White Semimatte as a (relatively) neutral media for our Fiery-driven Epson > SC P9000 proofing system. I am finding that increasingly, our clients’s > files are being printed on paper stock loaded with optical brightening > agents, so our “neutral” media appears quite “yellowish” compared to the > final press output. I’m beginning to think that media that measures > “neutral” is now anachronistic when proofing for publications. > >> > >> So my question is, what might be a more appropriate paper for > general-purpose proofing - recommendations gladly accepted! > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> John > >> JWL Images > > _______________________________________________ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > > colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) > > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/lists%40bickeboeller... > > > > This email sent to lists@bickeboeller.name > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/ernst.dinkla%40gmail... > > This email sent to ernst.dinkla@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rtelhan%40icloud.com This email sent to rtelhan@icloud.com
participants (4)
-
Claas Bickeböller
-
Ernst Dinkla
-
John Lund
-
Refik Telhan