Hello All: I hope I can explain myself clearly. We are using an Indigo as a "proofer". We proof simulating various printing conditions. With the Indigo we are able print on the actual stock the printer will use (most of the stock is being supplied by the printers themselves). We use ORIS Color Tuner to maintain colour and Hot folders to process files. Our workflow is as follows. We get the Indigo into a repeatable state. We run an IT8 through ORIS (various iterations) until we have a colorimetric match to the printing condition (Ex. GRACoL 2006). We use paper stocks that fall within spec. for GRACoL. As long as the printer is using stocks that also fall within the GRACoL spec. we have a "match" between our proof and the printer. All this is fine until we come to uncoated stocks with high levels of OBA's. Before the release of the GRACoL Uncoated 2013 profile we would set up on an uncoated stock that was within the spec. for Fogra 47. We would measure the IT8 with an ISis using the UV Cut measurement. If we were proofing on printer supplied paper with higher levels of OBA's than the spec. allowed, we simply let the colour go where it went. This works quite well until we run into the situation where the printer (making their own proofs) would use a UV cut measurement on stocks very heavy in OBA's. Now the two proofs will not match. What is the best way to set up in this scenario? Should I use the UV Cut or not on papers with high levels of OBA. Remember - I am not simulating on an Inkjet, I am using the actual printing papers on an Indigo. Is there a correct way as a rule of thumb? Thanks - Mike Stewart
How about using M1 measurements? Since "GRACoL Uncoated 2013" aka CRPC-3 mandates M1 measurements? It's in the header after all : ISO28178 ORIGINATOR "CGATS" FILE_DESCRIPTOR "CGATS21-2-CRPC3" # Characterized Reference Printing Condition 1, Universal Premium Uncoated CREATED "December, 2012" MEASUREMENT_GEOMETRY "ISO 13655 - Reflection, M1, white backing" <<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------ FILTER "D50" # Reference White Point (LAB) = 95.00 1.00 -4.00 # Reference Black Point (LAB) = 27.08 -0.19 1.07 NUMBER_OF_FIELDS 8 BEGIN_DATA_FORMAT SAMPLE_ID CMYK_C CMYK_M CMYK_Y CMYK_K LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B END_DATA_FORMAT NUMBER_OF_SETS 1617 BEGIN_DATA Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Mike Stewart Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:49 AM To: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: GRACoL 2013 Hello All: I hope I can explain myself clearly. We are using an Indigo as a "proofer". We proof simulating various printing conditions. With the Indigo we are able print on the actual stock the printer will use (most of the stock is being supplied by the printers themselves). We use ORIS Color Tuner to maintain colour and Hot folders to process files. Our workflow is as follows. We get the Indigo into a repeatable state. We run an IT8 through ORIS (various iterations) until we have a colorimetric match to the printing condition (Ex. GRACoL 2006). We use paper stocks that fall within spec. for GRACoL. As long as the printer is using stocks that also fall within the GRACoL spec. we have a "match" between our proof and the printer. All this is fine until we come to uncoated stocks with high levels of OBA's. Before the release of the GRACoL Uncoated 2013 profile we would set up on an uncoated stock that was within the spec. for Fogra 47. We would measure the IT8 with an ISis using the UV Cut measurement. If we were proofing on printer supplied paper with higher levels of OBA's than the spec. allowed, we simply let the colour go where it went. This works quite well until we run into the situation where the printer (making their own proofs) would use a UV cut measurement on stocks very heavy in OBA's. Now the two proofs will not match. What is the best way to set up in this scenario? Should I use the UV Cut or not on papers with high levels of OBA. Remember - I am not simulating on an Inkjet, I am using the actual printing papers on an Indigo. Is there a correct way as a rule of thumb? Thanks - Mike Stewart
Mike Stewart wrote:
What is the best way to set up in this scenario? Should I use the UV Cut or not on papers with high levels of OBA.
It's not so much about the paper - it's about your viewing conditions. You will get the best visual match if the effective instrument illumination is similar to that of your viewing conditions with regard to UV output. So UV cut (M2) is appropriate if your viewing conditions are UV poor (ie. Incandescent filtered by glass). If pure Incandescent, then M0 would be appropriate. If you are in natural light then something that more accurately simulates D50, such as M1 would be appropriate. If you are using a viewing booth, then it depends on the UV output of the lamps, which in the past was rather variable. As usual, you get better matches if you use the actual viewing illuminant spectrum to compute the XYZ values from the reflectance rather than the default ICC/Graphic Arts assumption of D50. Graeme Gill.
On Dec 4, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Mike Stewart wrote:
What is the best way to set up in this scenario? Should I use the UV Cut or not on papers with high levels of OBA.
It's not so much about the paper - it's about your viewing conditions.
This is the main reason why I avoid fluorescent papers for anything critical. Take the print from one room to another and then step outside and it dramatically changes appearance. A non-fluorescent print generally changes appearance only in ways that don't tend to consciously register unless you're looking for them, thanks to adaptation. If the job is going to be printed on fluorescent paper, either it's going to be displayed in a fixed location (and I'll get a measurement of the light in that location and profile accordingly), or I'll just let Argyll do its best with its default options, which represent as good a compromise as you're going to find. But if a critical match is needed, fluorescent paper is almost always the worng tool for the job. That's especially true for something like a magazine that'll get read everywhere from living rooms to doctor's offices to the beach to the campfire.... Cheers, b&
Hi Mike, all FOGRA47 actually reflects a printing condition with uncoated paper (with little amount of OBA). We are currently working on FOGRA52 which reflects uncoated stock with typical (high) amount of OBA. Here we reflect the ISO 3664:2009 printing conditions that can be found in the real world :-) and all modern viewing cabinets (-> M1). The white point will be around 93 2 -10 ish ... Currently practical print tests are carried out (also to verify the corresponding [ECI] ICC profile). So please wait a few weeks (or visit the Fogra symposium where we have an extra session devoted to OBA :-) regards Andy On Dec 4, 2013, at 11:15 PM, Ben Goren wrote:
On Dec 4, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Graeme Gill <graeme2@argyllcms.com> wrote:
Mike Stewart wrote:
What is the best way to set up in this scenario? Should I use the UV Cut or not on papers with high levels of OBA.
It's not so much about the paper - it's about your viewing conditions.
This is the main reason why I avoid fluorescent papers for anything critical. Take the print from one room to another and then step outside and it dramatically changes appearance. A non-fluorescent print generally changes appearance only in ways that don't tend to consciously register unless you're looking for them, thanks to adaptation.
If the job is going to be printed on fluorescent paper, either it's going to be displayed in a fixed location (and I'll get a measurement of the light in that location and profile accordingly), or I'll just let Argyll do its best with its default options, which represent as good a compromise as you're going to find.
But if a critical match is needed, fluorescent paper is almost always the worng tool for the job.
That's especially true for something like a magazine that'll get read everywhere from living rooms to doctor's offices to the beach to the campfire....
Cheers,
b& _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/andreas.kraushaar%40...
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---- Those who know nothing, must believe everything ------- The future of colour - Visit the Fogra Colour Management Symposium! http://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-events/colour-management-en/a-cms-en.html Dr.-Ing. Andreas Kraushaar Dept. Prepress Fogra Graphic Technology Research Association Streitfeldstrasse 19 81673 Munich, Germany Telefon: +49 89. 431 82 - 335 Telefax: +49 89. 431 82 - 100 E-mail: kraushaar@fogra.org Internet: www.fogra.org ----------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an addressee or otherwise authorized to receive this message, you should not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this e-mail or any information contained in the message. If you have received this material in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Managing Director: Dr. Eduard Neufeld | Registered Office: Munich | Register of Associations: VR 4909
On Dec 8, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Andreas Kraushaar <andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de> wrote:
We are currently working on FOGRA52 which reflects uncoated stock with typical (high) amount of OBA
Begging the question, what's typical (and high) amouts of OBA and what does one do when the paper in question doesn't match? It's a significant issue considering the vast amount of papers available and their amout of OBAs. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
Hi Andrew, all there is a ∆B metric (introduced in ISO 15937) and a table with typical values / categories (no, low, moderate, normal, high). There is high correlation between ∆B and ∆CIEb* (CIEb* measured with M1 - CIEb* measured with M2) if you can't measure ∆B directly (some measurement device such as FD7 support it already). you can find more at my last presentation I gave at ISO WG3: http://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-publications/pub-talks/presentations-prepress/... regards Andy On Dec 8, 2013, at 7:56 PM, Andrew Rodney wrote:
On Dec 8, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Andreas Kraushaar <andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de> wrote:
We are currently working on FOGRA52 which reflects uncoated stock with typical (high) amount of OBA
Begging the question, what's typical (and high) amouts of OBA and what does one do when the paper in question doesn't match? It's a significant issue considering the vast amount of papers available and their amout of OBAs.
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/andreas.kraushaar%40...
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---- Those who know nothing, must believe everything ------- The future of colour - Visit the Fogra Colour Management Symposium! http://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-events/colour-management-en/a-cms-en.html Dr.-Ing. Andreas Kraushaar Dept. Prepress Fogra Graphic Technology Research Association Streitfeldstrasse 19 81673 Munich, Germany Telefon: +49 89. 431 82 - 335 Telefax: +49 89. 431 82 - 100 E-mail: kraushaar@fogra.org Internet: www.fogra.org ----------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an addressee or otherwise authorized to receive this message, you should not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this e-mail or any information contained in the message. If you have received this material in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Managing Director: Dr. Eduard Neufeld | Registered Office: Munich | Register of Associations: VR 4909
------ Sent from Apple touch-screen device Best Regards, Derek Lambert
On Dec 8, 2013, at 4:23 PM, Andreas Kraushaar <andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi Andrew, all
there is a ∆B metric (introduced in ISO 15937) and a table with typical values / categories (no, low, moderate, normal, high). There is high correlation between ∆B and ∆CIEb* (CIEb* measured with M1 - CIEb* measured with M2) if you can't measure ∆B directly (some measurement device such as FD7 support it already).
you can find more at my last presentation I gave at ISO WG3: http://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-publications/pub-talks/presentations-prepress/...
regards Andy
On Dec 8, 2013, at 7:56 PM, Andrew Rodney wrote:
On Dec 8, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Andreas Kraushaar <andreas.kraushaar@gmx.de> wrote:
We are currently working on FOGRA52 which reflects uncoated stock with typical (high) amount of OBA
Begging the question, what's typical (and high) amouts of OBA and what does one do when the paper in question doesn't match? It's a significant issue considering the vast amount of papers available and their amout of OBAs.
Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/andreas.kraushaar%40...
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---- Those who know nothing, must believe everything -------
The future of colour - Visit the Fogra Colour Management Symposium! http://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-events/colour-management-en/a-cms-en.html
Dr.-Ing. Andreas Kraushaar Dept. Prepress
Fogra Graphic Technology Research Association Streitfeldstrasse 19 81673 Munich, Germany
Telefon: +49 89. 431 82 - 335 Telefax: +49 89. 431 82 - 100 E-mail: kraushaar@fogra.org Internet: www.fogra.org -----------------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an addressee or otherwise authorized to receive this message, you should not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this e-mail or any information contained in the message. If you have received this material in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message.
Managing Director: Dr. Eduard Neufeld | Registered Office: Munich | Register of Associations: VR 4909
_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Colorsync-users mailing list (Colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/csync%40colorforest....
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participants (7)
-
Andreas Kraushaar
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Andrew Rodney
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Ben Goren
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Derek Lambert
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Graeme Gill
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Mike Stewart
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Roger Breton