Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
Thank you. So this is a rating system aimed at helping with purchasing decisions? I thought calibration gizmos could already put displays into various states so I'm guessing that wide gamut displays present a bigger problem for calibration routines - not just observers. Right? Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 3:57 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com> wrote:
Hi Henry,
The problem can be solved just by classifying displays on the basis of OMMI and picking the right type of display. Hence, classifying people on the basis of their CMFs is not necessary. Even if you classify people in terms of their CMFs, certain type of displays will still cause observer variability. The problem can be solved by selecting displays with the lowest level of observer variability for color critical work involving multiple observers who will possibly have different CMFs.
Tests to detect color blindness are done regularly. The online versions of the Ishihara Test and the Farnsworth-Munsell 100 Hue Test are administered for a start. Further testing is done when results point to problems. The current discussion is not about people with some kind of color vision deficiency. We are talking about people with normal vision. Any further testing of such people would only tell us that they have “different” CMFs, which is perfectly “normal”. And that is something which we already know.
Refik Telhan
From: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>> Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 18:18 To: "rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>" <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
Hi Refic,
The truth is the truth - politically correct or not vision varies between individuals, and, it has nothing to do with the value of the person. I’d say that some of the most acclaimed painters of past centuries didn’t have “normal” vision and their work is proof of that.
When work involves color, individual differences in perception cannot be solved by ignoring it. It also cannot be solved by somehow classifying the object being viewed. The observer is the issue.
Not an easy task? A basic vision test can quickly spot problems with color perception. It's a very easy test and would separate out the most deficient applicants for other jobs, jobs for which they would have a better chance of success. How is that not a very good thing? Mature adults don't have a problem with this, they don't make themselves into a victim over it.
More refined tests could become an ongoing “training” program allowing observers to discover their weak points and become aware of situations where they might seek out other opinions. Have you never sought out another’s opinion about a color? Color workers do that all the time - it’s what they do, and after that someone else checks off the project boxes and puts their name on the line. At that point there is agreement.
You would hire a color-blind person to do color work so as to be politically correct? Would you take a flight with a legally blind pilot? Classifying airplanes to account for it isn’t the solution.
If I were hiring a person to do color work I would first rely on a basic vision test and not a classification of the object bering viewed. It is the person doing the viewing (Observer Metamerism not the Observed). I cannot help but wonder why your focus is on the other side of the equation, the side where there is no OM.
If you could explain this in a few words with simple language and without links to studies that would be nice. I’m sure I’m missing something that is obvious but I don’t know what it is. Therefore please keep it simple and brief, not wasting your time. Thank you.
Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 9:34 AM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>> wrote:
Hi Henry,
IMHO, this would not be politically correct. Classifying people may implicitly mean that some do not have “normal” vision. Measuring the eyes of individuals and calculating their specific CMFs would probably not be an easy task.
However, computer displays can be classifed quite easily by a series of spectral measurements. Technically, all calibration/profiling applications for computer displays can be enhanced to include such functionality.
Refik Telhan
-----Original Message----- From: Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> Reply-To: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>>> Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 16:1 To: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
There is great variation in human vision - it cannot be “reduced”. Working only one side of an equation doesn’t lead to a solution. However, there may be a way to “reduce” OM . . . “quantify" the viewer.
Test the perception of those who intend to work in the field and place those applicants who make the higher grades.
It is discrimination of a sort and some group will surely claim to be “injured” - but it is a solution. Vision testing is required in a number of professional occupations.
Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 12:25 AM, Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com><mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> wrote:
Hi Refik. Thanks for those links. Very interesting. I see in the article.. “the pitfalls of wide gamut displays”, https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451>>, Johan Bergquist writes “As explained by Kwak and Whitehead, the only way to reduce OM (observer metamerism) and simultaneously maintain a large WCG (wide color gamut) is to use multi-chromatic displays—for example, displays with additional emitters beyond RGB, such as cyan (RGBC). Thus, Gary Feather’s article “Multi-Chromatic Ultrawide Color Gamut, Full-Color Range Systems” describes direct-view LED wall and projection display systems based on RGBC and RGBCY + emerald.”
Thanks Peter Miles
From: Refik Telhan via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> ID Magazine (the quarterly Journal of the Society for Information Display) has dedicated a whole issue to this topic:
“Understanding Wide Color Gamut Displays” https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1>> (free access)
Johan Bergquist’s article “Measuring Subjective Differences Objectively” https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453>> (free access)
is about a newly defined metric, the “Observer Metameric Mismatch Index” (OMMI).
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Hi Henry, Yes it is a rating system that may help the user when making decisions on computer displays. The metric is puslished by IEC (International Electromechanical Commission) on November 1, 2023 as a Technical Specification (IEC TS 61966-13:2023). https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/67769 The calibration applications can change the relative balance between the primaries to match the targeted CCT or adjust gamma for a smooth ramp but they cannot change the spectral shape or the peak wavelength of the primaries. These characteristics are designed into the display by its maker. Refik Telhan -----Original Message----- From: Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Reply-To: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>> Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 23:33 To: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Thank you. So this is a rating system aimed at helping with purchasing decisions? I thought calibration gizmos could already put displays into various states so I'm guessing that wide gamut displays present a bigger problem for calibration routines - not just observers. Right? Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 3:57 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>> wrote:
Hi Henry,
The problem can be solved just by classifying displays on the basis of OMMI and picking the right type of display. Hence, classifying people on the basis of their CMFs is not necessary. Even if you classify people in terms of their CMFs, certain type of displays will still cause observer variability. The problem can be solved by selecting displays with the lowest level of observer variability for color critical work involving multiple observers who will possibly have different CMFs.
Tests to detect color blindness are done regularly. The online versions of the Ishihara Test and the Farnsworth-Munsell 100 Hue Test are administered for a start. Further testing is done when results point to problems. The current discussion is not about people with some kind of color vision deficiency. We are talking about people with normal vision. Any further testing of such people would only tell us that they have “different” CMFs, which is perfectly “normal”. And that is something which we already know.
Refik Telhan
From: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>>>
Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 18:18
To: "rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com> <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>>" <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com> <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>>>
Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
Hi Refic,
The truth is the truth - politically correct or not vision varies between individuals, and, it has nothing to do with the value of the person. I’d say that some of the most acclaimed painters of past centuries didn’t have “normal” vision and their work is proof of that.
When work involves color, individual differences in perception cannot be solved by ignoring it. It also cannot be solved by somehow classifying the object being viewed. The observer is the issue.
Not an easy task? A basic vision test can quickly spot problems with color perception. It's a very easy test and would separate out the most deficient applicants for other jobs, jobs for which they would have a better chance of success. How is that not a very good thing? Mature adults don't have a problem with this, they don't make themselves into a victim over it.
More refined tests could become an ongoing “training” program allowing observers to discover their weak points and become aware of situations where they might seek out other opinions. Have you never sought out another’s opinion about a color? Color workers do that all the time - it’s what they do, and after that someone else checks off the project boxes and puts their name on the line. At that point there is agreement.
You would hire a color-blind person to do color work so as to be politically correct? Would you take a flight with a legally blind pilot? Classifying airplanes to account for it isn’t the solution.
If I were hiring a person to do color work I would first rely on a basic vision test and not a classification of the object bering viewed. It is the person doing the viewing (Observer Metamerism not the Observed). I cannot help but wonder why your focus is on the other side of the equation, the side where there is no OM.
If you could explain this in a few words with simple language and without links to studies that would be nice. I’m sure I’m missing something that is obvious but I don’t know what it is. Therefore please keep it simple and brief, not wasting your time. Thank you.
Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 9:34 AM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com> <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>>> wrote:
Hi Henry,
IMHO, this would not be politically correct. Classifying people may implicitly mean that some do not have “normal” vision. Measuring the eyes of individuals and calculating their specific CMFs would probably not be an easy task.
However, computer displays can be classifed quite easily by a series of spectral measurements. Technically, all calibration/profiling applications for computer displays can be enhanced to include such functionality.
Refik Telhan
-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>>>
Reply-To: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>>>>
Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 16:1
To: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>>>
Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
There is great variation in human vision - it cannot be “reduced”. Working only one side of an equation doesn’t lead to a solution. However, there may be a way to “reduce” OM . . . “quantify" the viewer.
Test the perception of those who intend to work in the field and place those applicants who make the higher grades.
It is discrimination of a sort and some group will surely claim to be “injured” - but it is a solution. Vision testing is required in a number of professional occupations.
Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 12:25 AM, Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>><mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>>> wrote:
Hi Refik.
Thanks for those links. Very interesting.
I see in the article.. “the pitfalls of wide gamut displays”, https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451>> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/msid.1451>>>, Johan Bergquist writes “As explained by Kwak and Whitehead, the only way to reduce OM (observer metamerism) and simultaneously maintain a large WCG (wide color gamut) is to use multi-chromatic displays—for example, displays with additional emitters beyond RGB, such as cyan (RGBC). Thus, Gary Feather’s article “Multi-Chromatic Ultrawide Color Gamut, Full-Color Range Systems” describes direct-view LED wall and projection display systems based on RGBC and RGBCY + emerald.”
Thanks
Peter Miles
From: Refik Telhan via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>>>
ID Magazine (the quarterly Journal of the Society for Information Display) has dedicated a whole issue to this topic:
“Understanding Wide Color Gamut Displays” https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1>> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/2637496x/2024/40/1>>> (free access)
Johan Bergquist’s article “Measuring Subjective Differences Objectively” https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453 <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453><https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453>> <https://sid.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/msid.1453>>> (free access)
is about a newly defined metric, the “Observer Metameric Mismatch Index” (OMMI).
_______________________________________________
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Thanks for the clarity, I thought you were addressing a new problem within a large population of users (lots and lots of wide gamut users). Maybe it’s more the case that you’ve found a specialized field where wide gamut displays are being the most problematic. People in the print world have dealt with displays forever and have found ways to deal with it. It’s not perfect but close enough. If characterization and calibration can’t do the job I don’t see how a rating system is going to offer anything more meaningful than "display X will cause less OM ”, or "display Y is suitable for a single user - not for multiple observers”. Or possibly “display Z is most suitable for home theatre”. Making it easier to figure out which displays are best for certain kinds of work is a noble goal but the problem of OM is going to be left unresolved nonetheless. For most of the side gamut display users I know there is no problem with OM. I see how there can be special areas that might have OM issues such as motion picture creators, theatres, home TVs. As far as I know motion picture creators have worked this out. I don’t know if home TVs have been rated for OM or for compliance with some motion picture industry standard. Old movie theatres with film projectors weren’t especially wide gamut but I’d bet there was still some OM going on. Audiences didn’t mind. Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 6:04 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>> wrote:
Hi Henry,
Yes it is a rating system that may help the user when making decisions on computer displays.
The metric is puslished by IEC (International Electromechanical Commission) on November 1, 2023 as a Technical Specification (IEC TS 61966-13:2023). https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/67769 <https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/67769>
The calibration applications can change the relative balance between the primaries to match the targeted CCT or adjust gamma for a smooth ramp but they cannot change the spectral shape or the peak wavelength of the primaries. These characteristics are designed into the display by its maker.
Refik Telhan
-----Original Message----- From: Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> Reply-To: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>>> Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 23:33 To: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
Thank you. So this is a rating system aimed at helping with purchasing decisions?
I thought calibration gizmos could already put displays into various states so I'm guessing that wide gamut displays present a bigger problem for calibration routines - not just observers. Right?
Hi Henry, OMMI is in fact addressing a very old problem which has remained dormant for long years. The OM problem is now becoming more proplematic for color-critical work that involves collabortion as the bandwiths of primaries are narrowing down. An individual observer can adapt to any type of display he/she is using but multiple observers cannot converge to the same point. As I have been involved in calibrating/profiling displays since 1992, I have found ways of tweaking displays to make them useful in the simulation of the printed image. Standrad gamut displays with very good uniformity have provided acceptable results for years. They were not perfect but good enough to communicate color information between multiple observers. OM is directly related to the way the display is designed and built. This cannnot be resolved by OMMI or by any calibration/profiling trick . OMMI can only tell you the extent of OM. We are here discussing the problem as it is reflected into the graphic arts industry. The movie industry is already aware of the problem due to dominance of P3 colorspace in their displays. The key people in the production process such as the colorist, the director of photography, the editor, and the director all view the clips on separate displays that are tuned to their eyes. The continuity of color can only be maintained by adjusing each display to its user. As there are limited number people in the production people this is possible. However the creation and reproduction of the still image involves many steps and several decision makers. Hence assigning and calibrating a display to each is not possible. Widening the color gamut worsens OM. OMMI will just tell us where the display sits. Refik Telhan -----Original Message----- From: Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Reply-To: Henry Davis <DAVISHR@BELLSOUTH.NET <mailto:DAVISHR@BELLSOUTH.NET>> Date: 23 March 2024 Saturday 02:59 To: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions? Thanks for the clarity, I thought you were addressing a new problem within a large population of users (lots and lots of wide gamut users). Maybe it’s more the case that you’ve found a specialized field where wide gamut displays are being the most problematic. People in the print world have dealt with displays forever and have found ways to deal with it. It’s not perfect but close enough. If characterization and calibration can’t do the job I don’t see how a rating system is going to offer anything more meaningful than "display X will cause less OM ”, or "display Y is suitable for a single user - not for multiple observers”. Or possibly “display Z is most suitable for home theatre”. Making it easier to figure out which displays are best for certain kinds of work is a noble goal but the problem of OM is going to be left unresolved nonetheless. For most of the side gamut display users I know there is no problem with OM. I see how there can be special areas that might have OM issues such as motion picture creators, theatres, home TVs. As far as I know motion picture creators have worked this out. I don’t know if home TVs have been rated for OM or for compliance with some motion picture industry standard. Old movie theatres with film projectors weren’t especially wide gamut but I’d bet there was still some OM going on. Audiences didn’t mind. Henry Davis
On Mar 22, 2024, at 6:04 PM, Refik Telhan <rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com> <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>>> wrote:
Hi Henry,
Yes it is a rating system that may help the user when making decisions on computer displays.
The metric is puslished by IEC (International Electromechanical Commission) on November 1, 2023 as a Technical Specification (IEC TS 61966-13:2023). https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/67769 <https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/67769> <https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/67769> <https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/67769>>
The calibration applications can change the relative balance between the primaries to match the targeted CCT or adjust gamma for a smooth ramp but they cannot change the spectral shape or the peak wavelength of the primaries. These characteristics are designed into the display by its maker.
Refik Telhan
-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Davis via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>>>
Reply-To: Henry Davis <davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net> <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net <mailto:davishr@bellsouth.net>>>>
Date: 22 March 2024 Friday 23:33
To: <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>>>>
Subject: Re: Monitor/display suggestions?
Thank you. So this is a rating system aimed at helping with purchasing decisions?
I thought calibration gizmos could already put displays into various states so I'm guessing that wide gamut displays present a bigger problem for calibration routines - not just observers. Right?
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participants (3)
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Henry Davis
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Henry Davis
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Refik Telhan