Spectrometers for graphic arts and UV.
Hi List members. I have been wondering why the spectrometers that we use in colour management have not begun to include some UV measurement, given ISO3664:2009 requires lighting with specified amounts of it. Or in the case of the upcoming P3/P4 viewing condition, its absence. I use ours (XRite) to measure CRI/TM-30 of room lighting, and to check light modifiers used in our photo studio as they age, and that’s great. But I can’t use it for to check if lighting is ISO 3664 compliant. And that seems strange, given these spectrometers target market. Would adding UV sensitivity make spectrometers too expensive for not enough added value? Or are there other cans of other worms that make it not practical? I’m hoping those in the know could shed some light on this. Thanks Peter
Hi Peter, ISO 3664:2009 requires a measurement range from 300nm to (AFAIR) 830nm. This is way beyond the range needed for colour measurements. As the instruments you are referring to are mainly used to measure reflection values in the visible wavelength range (AKA colour) it would add up a lot of overhead (= costs) to also comply to ISO 3664. But our Konica Minolta FD-7 as well as our MYIRO-1 measure light starting from 360nm. As typical light sources used for colour appraisal in graphic arts do not have significant energy below 360nm (neither fluorescent tubes nor LED) this is perfectly sufficient to get a very good idea about the quality of your viewing environment. On top you can even use the measured light spectrum to calculate profiles for exactly this condition (instead for theoretical D50). In case you are interested in their other features feel free to contact me off-list. Best regards Claas
Peter Miles via colorsync-users <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> 12. Dezember 2024 um 07:16 Hi List members. I have been wondering why the spectrometers that we use in colour management have not begun to include some UV measurement, given ISO3664:2009 requires lighting with specified amounts of it. Or in the case of the upcoming P3/P4 viewing condition, its absence.
I use ours (XRite) to measure CRI/TM-30 of room lighting, and to check light modifiers used in our photo studio as they age, and that’s great. But I can’t use it for to check if lighting is ISO 3664 compliant. And that seems strange, given these spectrometers target market.
Would adding UV sensitivity make spectrometers too expensive for not enough added value? Or are there other cans of other worms that make it not practical?
I’m hoping those in the know could shed some light on this.
Thanks Peter _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/lists%40bickeboeller...
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Hi Claas Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate getting an instrument manufacturers perspective on my question. Kind regards Peter Miles From: Claas Bickeböller <lists@bickeboeller.name> Date: Thursday, 12 December 2024 at 8:35 PM To: Peter Miles <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz> Cc: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrometers for graphic arts and UV. Hi Peter, ISO 3664:2009 requires a measurement range from 300nm to (AFAIR) 830nm. This is way beyond the range needed for colour measurements. As the instruments you are referring to are mainly used to measure reflection values in the visible wavelength range (AKA colour) it would add up a lot of overhead (= costs) to also comply to ISO 3664. But our Konica Minolta FD-7 as well as our MYIRO-1 measure light starting from 360nm. As typical light sources used for colour appraisal in graphic arts do not have significant energy below 360nm (neither fluorescent tubes nor LED) this is perfectly sufficient to get a very good idea about the quality of your viewing environment. On top you can even use the measured light spectrum to calculate profiles for exactly this condition (instead for theoretical D50). In case you are interested in their other features feel free to contact me off-list. Best regards Claas Peter Miles via colorsync-users<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> 12. Dezember 2024 um 07:16 Hi List members. I have been wondering why the spectrometers that we use in colour management have not begun to include some UV measurement, given ISO3664:2009 requires lighting with specified amounts of it. Or in the case of the upcoming P3/P4 viewing condition, its absence. I use ours (XRite) to measure CRI/TM-30 of room lighting, and to check light modifiers used in our photo studio as they age, and that’s great. But I can’t use it for to check if lighting is ISO 3664 compliant. And that seems strange, given these spectrometers target market. Would adding UV sensitivity make spectrometers too expensive for not enough added value? Or are there other cans of other worms that make it not practical? I’m hoping those in the know could shed some light on this. Thanks Peter _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com<mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/lists%40bickeboeller... This email sent to lists@bickeboeller.name<mailto:lists@bickeboeller.name>
Hi Peter, HOPOOCOLOR - OHSP350UV 230-850nm UV Spectrometer https://www.hopoocolor.com/product/detail/uv-test.html (Hangzhou Hopoo Light and Color Technology Co., Ltd.) This device can generate data in the above range at a resolution of 1 nm. The data can be exported as a CSV file and used in ISO 3664 as well as TM-30-XX checks. This device is reasonably priced. Best regards, - Refik -----Original Message----- From: Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Reply-To: Peter Miles <P.Miles@massey.ac.nz <mailto:P.Miles@massey.ac.nz>> Date: 12 December 2024 Thursday 09:19 To: "colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> Subject: Spectrometers for graphic arts and UV. Hi List members. I have been wondering why the spectrometers that we use in colour management have not begun to include some UV measurement, given ISO3664:2009 requires lighting with specified amounts of it. Or in the case of the upcoming P3/P4 viewing condition, its absence. I use ours (XRite) to measure CRI/TM-30 of room lighting, and to check light modifiers used in our photo studio as they age, and that’s great. But I can’t use it for to check if lighting is ISO 3664 compliant. And that seems strange, given these spectrometers target market. Would adding UV sensitivity make spectrometers too expensive for not enough added value? Or are there other cans of other worms that make it not practical? I’m hoping those in the know could shed some light on this. Thanks Peter _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rtelhan%40icloud.com <https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/rtelhan%40icloud.com> This email sent to rtelhan@icloud.com <mailto:rtelhan@icloud.com>
Hello Peter,
On Dec 11, 2024, at 22:16, Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
Hi List members. I have been wondering why the spectrometers that we use in colour management have not begun to include some UV measurement, given ISO3664:2009 requires lighting with specified amounts of it. Or in the case of the upcoming P3/P4 viewing condition, its absence.
I use ours (XRite) to measure CRI/TM-30 of room lighting, and to check light modifiers used in our photo studio as they age, and that’s great. But I can’t use it for to check if lighting is ISO 3664 compliant. And that seems strange, given these spectrometers target market.
I think the folks that made ISO 3664 were expecting that if they defined the standard then the manufacturers would produce instruments to match. There are two things the spectrometer must do to pass ISO 3664. First, for emissive measurements it must sample in 5 nm or smaller bands. Second, it must measure from 300 nm to 780 nm. The standard does note that few instruments existed at that time which met those requirements. Unfortunately it is true that few instruments still exist that meet these criteria. As it happens, the Konica-Minolta FD-7 and the MYIRO-1 provide 5 nm sampling from 360-730 nm. These are the only two ones I know that can almost pass the reflective measurement requirements of ISO 3664. I think they felt that measuring down to 360 nm would be enough. It does include the 365 emission peak from mercury lamp illuminators. Neither of these two instruments measures to 780 nm. The instruments I know that have the range to measure from 300-780 nm at less than 5 nm are all fiber optic instruments. They have the range but they lack good optical illumination for reflective samples. Some do have a 45x:0 measurement device, but that is not as good as 45c:0 or 45a:0 measurement optics. These instruments are designed more for chemical analysis, not calibrated to provide spectral reflectance factors like the graphic arts instruments. Instead they provide counts and the user is expected to convert counts into reflectance/transmittance factors. So this is a case where the standards guys made a standard that for practical purposes cannot be fully achieved by off-the-shelf instruments.
Would adding UV sensitivity make spectrometers too expensive for not enough added value? Or are there other cans of other worms that make it not practical?
Perhaps there was not enough of a perceived market to make ISO 3664 instruments, especially when the ones currently offered meet the requirements for most of the market. How many clients ask for ISO 3664 measurement and reporting? Notice that it is only in the last few years that instruments have appeared that have M0, M1 and M2 measurement modes (ISO 13655). And fewer still that have an M3 mode. X-Rite could not get the M3 mode to work on the i1Pro3 (4.5 mm aperture) so only the i1Pro3 Plus (8 mm aperture) has an M3 filter. Neither the FD-7 or MYIRO-1 offer M3 measurement. The X-Rite eXact does have all four measurement modes (M0, M1, M2, M3) but it does not measure light sources. It seems there is not one instrument that does everything required for all the standards used in the graphic arts market. If I have missed one that does, please let me know. Best regards, Robin Myers
robin--- via colorsync-users wrote:
It seems there is not one instrument that does everything required for all the standards used in the graphic arts market. If I have missed one that does, please let me know.
JETI offers a couple of emission measurement instruments that go as low as 230 and 200nm with resolution of 4.5nm and smaller. Not setup for reflection measurement though. Cheers, Graeme Gill.
Thanks Robin for the comprehensive overview! That fills in a lot of gaps in my understanding. Best regards Peter Miles From: robin--- via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Date: Thursday, 12 December 2024 at 9:42 PM To: Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: Re: Spectrometers for graphic arts and UV. Hello Peter,
On Dec 11, 2024, at 22:16, Peter Miles via colorsync-users <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com <mailto:colorsync-users@lists.apple.com>> wrote:
Hi List members. I have been wondering why the spectrometers that we use in colour management have not begun to include some UV measurement, given ISO3664:2009 requires lighting with specified amounts of it. Or in the case of the upcoming P3/P4 viewing condition, its absence.
I use ours (XRite) to measure CRI/TM-30 of room lighting, and to check light modifiers used in our photo studio as they age, and that’s great. But I can’t use it for to check if lighting is ISO 3664 compliant. And that seems strange, given these spectrometers target market.
I think the folks that made ISO 3664 were expecting that if they defined the standard then the manufacturers would produce instruments to match. There are two things the spectrometer must do to pass ISO 3664. First, for emissive measurements it must sample in 5 nm or smaller bands. Second, it must measure from 300 nm to 780 nm. The standard does note that few instruments existed at that time which met those requirements. Unfortunately it is true that few instruments still exist that meet these criteria. As it happens, the Konica-Minolta FD-7 and the MYIRO-1 provide 5 nm sampling from 360-730 nm. These are the only two ones I know that can almost pass the reflective measurement requirements of ISO 3664. I think they felt that measuring down to 360 nm would be enough. It does include the 365 emission peak from mercury lamp illuminators. Neither of these two instruments measures to 780 nm. The instruments I know that have the range to measure from 300-780 nm at less than 5 nm are all fiber optic instruments. They have the range but they lack good optical illumination for reflective samples. Some do have a 45x:0 measurement device, but that is not as good as 45c:0 or 45a:0 measurement optics. These instruments are designed more for chemical analysis, not calibrated to provide spectral reflectance factors like the graphic arts instruments. Instead they provide counts and the user is expected to convert counts into reflectance/transmittance factors. So this is a case where the standards guys made a standard that for practical purposes cannot be fully achieved by off-the-shelf instruments.
Would adding UV sensitivity make spectrometers too expensive for not enough added value? Or are there other cans of other worms that make it not practical?
Perhaps there was not enough of a perceived market to make ISO 3664 instruments, especially when the ones currently offered meet the requirements for most of the market. How many clients ask for ISO 3664 measurement and reporting? Notice that it is only in the last few years that instruments have appeared that have M0, M1 and M2 measurement modes (ISO 13655). And fewer still that have an M3 mode. X-Rite could not get the M3 mode to work on the i1Pro3 (4.5 mm aperture) so only the i1Pro3 Plus (8 mm aperture) has an M3 filter. Neither the FD-7 or MYIRO-1 offer M3 measurement. The X-Rite eXact does have all four measurement modes (M0, M1, M2, M3) but it does not measure light sources. It seems there is not one instrument that does everything required for all the standards used in the graphic arts market. If I have missed one that does, please let me know. Best regards, Robin Myers _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. colorsync-users mailing list (colorsync-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.apple.com%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fcolorsync-users%2Fp.miles%2540massey.ac.nz&data=05%7C02%7Cp.miles%40massey.ac.nz%7C330caa95116a445ac06608dd1a88d724%7C388728e1bbd0437898dcf8682e644300%7C0%7C0%7C638695897253887068%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bOJwzbsMYJWR1TCxS%2BCi1MNZ7uR4YL8KxRdLJPdUF08%3D&reserved=0<https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/colorsync-users/p.miles%40massey.ac.nz> This email sent to p.miles@massey.ac.nz
participants (5)
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Claas Bickeböller
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Graeme Gill
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Peter Miles
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Refik Telhan
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robin＠rmimaging.com