RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
So why should it be acceptable that this is still the *default* CMYK space for Photoshop (North America installs)? Since it continues in Adobe products, it is also the default for RIP vendors, printing houses that run inkjet/solvent printers, and all sorts of places that output on devices that bear almost no relation to "SWOP". OK, I'll drop it now... ;-) John On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:00 PM, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:49:00 -0500 From: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> To: "'ColorSync'" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point Message-ID: <02f101d05134$1a035680$4e0a0380$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Well, if they are running a "SWOP" press these days, under the G7 method, with SWOP2013-compliant inks colorimetry, the SWOPV2 "specification" isn't worth much anymore, Andrew?
On Feb 25, 2015, at 1:12 PM, John Lund <john@jwlimages.com> wrote:
So why should it be acceptable that this is still the *default* CMYK space for Photoshop (North America installs)?
Because there are still shops that conform to it for one. Unless you have data that TR001 is completely extinct. If you're outside North America with a shiny new copy of Photoshop, you're probably not going to use North America Presets right? You'll have to alter them. Again BFD. No default is correct 100% of the time for color.
Since it continues in Adobe products, it is also the default for RIP vendors, printing houses that run inkjet/solvent printers, and all sorts of places that output on devices that bear almost no relation to "SWOP".
So their uneducated understading of color and a complext app like Photoshop is who's falut other than their own? The bottom line is, for proper output, you have to select the proper profile. You can leave the PS defaults for CMYK as is and never need to worry about them by simply using Convert to Profile and picking the CORRECT profile there and making your conversion. I'm kind of surprised people in these parts would even consider these defaults; they force a Rendering Intent on all conversion. At least Convert to Profile gives you the opportunity to pick ANY profile, a RI, and soft proof all at once. Forget the CMYK defaults in the Color Settings or be smart and set them for the correct output should someone hold a gun to your head and make you use Mode Change in PS. Oh, you're printing to G7 and TR001? Now you have to pay attention and fix this in the color settings correctly or you're in a world of hurt. Mode Change> CMYK in Photoshop is really for the person who isn't using PS to it's fullest. It can only have one default and one setting. If you ignore picking the right profile for conversions, you deserve the color you get. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
John, Just to note: In all these RIPS's, it's the default incoming space. Not the default outgoing space. The outgoing space should always be the printer profile, and the incoming space should be whatever space in which the file was originally created. And if you're printing to an inkjet, then whether the incoming CMYK default is SWOP2 or G7 this or that or whatever, it makes very little difference, other than that the incoming space is set to correctly match the creation space. The issue here isn't what the default CMYK space is, it's why a client would be creating for this conversion in CMYK to begin with. Mike Adams Correct Color On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:12 PM, John Lund wrote:
So why should it be acceptable that this is still the *default* CMYK space for Photoshop (North America installs)? Since it continues in Adobe products, it is also the default for RIP vendors, printing houses that run inkjet/solvent printers, and all sorts of places that output on devices that bear almost no relation to "SWOP".
OK, I'll drop it now...
;-)
John
On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:00 PM, colorsync-users-request@lists.apple.com wrote:
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:49:00 -0500 From: Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> To: "'ColorSync'" <colorsync-users@lists.apple.com> Subject: RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point Message-ID: <02f101d05134$1a035680$4e0a0380$@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Well, if they are running a "SWOP" press these days, under the G7 method, with SWOP2013-compliant inks colorimetry, the SWOPV2 "specification" isn't worth much anymore, Andrew?
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On Feb 25, 2015, at 1:29 PM, G Mike Adams <typhoon@correctcolor.org> wrote:
The issue here isn't what the default CMYK space is, it's why a client would be creating for this conversion in CMYK to begin with.
Exactly! And nothing Adobe or anyone else in these parts can fix if a clueless user selects the wrong profile. Nothing. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
Hi Mike, Yes, I understand your point, of course. As long as Photoshop uses this default it makes sense to use it as the default input space for the RIP. But...
The issue here isn't what the default CMYK space is
This *is* the issue, at least to the extent that it means everyone will reduce the color & tonal range in their files to "SWOP". The fact that the RIP uses "SWOP" for input space tends to make operators think they should feed it only "SWOP" files. The customer tends to make the same assumption. I have been forced to demonstrate to grand format print vendors, for example, that their print systems (RIP/printer/media) can produce far better output than they get when receiving "SWOP" files from their customers (or even RGB files, if they are set up to "convert to SWOP" as the file is sent to the RIP). Sorry if this sounds like a broken record, as it were. John On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:29 PM, G Mike Adams <typhoon@correctcolor.org> wrote:
John,
Just to note: In all these RIPS's, it's the default incoming space. Not the default outgoing space. The outgoing space should always be the printer profile, and the incoming space should be whatever space in which the file was originally created. And if you're printing to an inkjet, then whether the incoming CMYK default is SWOP2 or G7 this or that or whatever, it makes very little difference, other than that the incoming space is set to correctly match the creation space.
The issue here isn't what the default CMYK space is, it's why a client would be creating for this conversion in CMYK to begin with.
Mike Adams Correct Color
On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:12 PM, John Lund wrote:
So why should it be acceptable that this is still the *default* CMYK space for Photoshop (North America installs)? Since it continues in Adobe products, it is also the default for RIP vendors, printing houses that run inkjet/solvent printers, and all sorts of places that output on devices that bear almost no relation to "SWOP".
OK, I'll drop it now...
;-)
John
Let's keep in mind that, any way one looks at it, a "SWOPv2" proof, relative colorimetric, bears the trace of the yellowish grounded coated #5 TR-001 substrate, L89 a0 b+4. No one wants to see an abs col SWOPv2 proof. Best / Roger -----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of John Lund Sent: 25 février 2015 16:02 To: G Mike Adams Cc: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point Hi Mike, Yes, I understand your point, of course. As long as Photoshop uses this default it makes sense to use it as the default input space for the RIP. But...
The issue here isn't what the default CMYK space is
This *is* the issue, at least to the extent that it means everyone will reduce the color & tonal range in their files to "SWOP". The fact that the RIP uses "SWOP" for input space tends to make operators think they should feed it only "SWOP" files. The customer tends to make the same assumption. I have been forced to demonstrate to grand format print vendors, for example, that their print systems (RIP/printer/media) can produce far better output than they get when receiving "SWOP" files from their customers (or even RGB files, if they are set up to "convert to SWOP" as the file is sent to the RIP). Sorry if this sounds like a broken record, as it were. John On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:29 PM, G Mike Adams <typhoon@correctcolor.org> wrote:
John,
Just to note: In all these RIPS's, it's the default incoming space. Not the default outgoing space. The outgoing space should always be the printer profile, and the incoming space should be whatever space in which the file was originally created. And if you're printing to an inkjet, then whether the incoming CMYK default is SWOP2 or G7 this or that or whatever, it makes very little difference, other than that the incoming space is set to correctly match the creation space.
The issue here isn't what the default CMYK space is, it's why a client would be creating for this conversion in CMYK to begin with.
Mike Adams Correct Color
On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:12 PM, John Lund wrote:
So why should it be acceptable that this is still the *default* CMYK space for Photoshop (North America installs)? Since it continues in Adobe products, it is also the default for RIP vendors, printing houses that run inkjet/solvent printers, and all sorts of places that output on devices that bear almost no relation to "SWOP".
OK, I'll drop it now...
;-)
John
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John, "Convert to SWOP"? That I'm just going to have to take your word for, because all I can say is that I work exclusively with large and grand format printers, have for some 9 years now, and have never walked into a client's shop that was doing that. Some work with CMYK, and in doing so are working in SWOP2 without being aware of it, but a conversion routine from some RGB to SWOP and then back to the printer space, or using SWOP as the printer space in the RIP? I've never seen that. Ever. Not in a large or grand format shop. Not to say of course that I've seen it all. It just feels that way sometimes. One thing I have noticed is that there's a push on the part of some vendors to get large format shops to set Gracol as their incoming space. A push with which I strongly disagree, by the way. I set up RIP's with SWOP2 as the incoming CMYK, and my standard response to the Gracol business is, "When Adobe changes their defaults, so will I. Until then, if you have a client who sent you a file in CMYK, you can bet they had no idea what color space they were in, so it was SWOP, and SWOP is how you should set the RIP to expect CMYK." Of course, as long as the incoming files are tagged, and the RIP is set to honor the tag, that too is something of a moot point. Mike On Feb 25, 2015, at 3:32 PM, Roger Breton wrote:
Let's keep in mind that, any way one looks at it, a "SWOPv2" proof, relative colorimetric, bears the trace of the yellowish grounded coated #5 TR-001 substrate, L89 a0 b+4. No one wants to see an abs col SWOPv2 proof.
Best / Roger
-----Original Message----- From: colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com [mailto:colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=videotron.ca@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of John Lund Sent: 25 février 2015 16:02 To: G Mike Adams Cc: colorsync-users@lists.apple.com Subject: Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
Hi Mike,
Yes, I understand your point, of course. As long as Photoshop uses this default it makes sense to use it as the default input space for the RIP. But...
The issue here isn't what the default CMYK space is
This *is* the issue, at least to the extent that it means everyone will reduce the color & tonal range in their files to "SWOP". The fact that the RIP uses "SWOP" for input space tends to make operators think they should feed it only "SWOP" files. The customer tends to make the same assumption.
I have been forced to demonstrate to grand format print vendors, for example, that their print systems (RIP/printer/media) can produce far better output than they get when receiving "SWOP" files from their customers (or even RGB files, if they are set up to "convert to SWOP" as the file is sent to the RIP).
Sorry if this sounds like a broken record, as it were.
John
On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:29 PM, G Mike Adams <typhoon@correctcolor.org> wrote:
John,
Just to note: In all these RIPS's, it's the default incoming space. Not the default outgoing space. The outgoing space should always be the printer profile, and the incoming space should be whatever space in which the file was originally created. And if you're printing to an inkjet, then whether the incoming CMYK default is SWOP2 or G7 this or that or whatever, it makes very little difference, other than that the incoming space is set to correctly match the creation space.
The issue here isn't what the default CMYK space is, it's why a client would be creating for this conversion in CMYK to begin with.
Mike Adams Correct Color
On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:12 PM, John Lund wrote:
So why should it be acceptable that this is still the *default* CMYK space for Photoshop (North America installs)? Since it continues in Adobe products, it is also the default for RIP vendors, printing houses that run inkjet/solvent printers, and all sorts of places that output on devices that bear almost no relation to "SWOP".
OK, I'll drop it now...
;-)
John
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On 25 Feb 2015, at 21:57, G Mike Adams <typhoon@correctcolor.org> wrote:
"Convert to SWOP"?
That I'm just going to have to take your word for, because all I can say is that I work exclusively with large and grand format printers, have for some 9 years now, and have never walked into a client's shop that was doing that.
What? I’m working on a project right now where that is exactly what has happened. Large brochure, 36x 16” x 24” spreads on an uncoated yellow stock. Each spread has one large or two single page images from international fashion campaigns — so the expectations are high. International client, UK design team and US printer. US printer instruction: “convert the images to US Web Coated SWOP v2” UK design team: “why are we converting an uncoated print job to a coated profile?” US printer: “We sort out everything at this end with curves. We’ll send ‘G7 proofs’ for you to sign off” UK designers convert and send and then wait for the proofs. Proofs arrived last Thursday. WTF is a “G7 Proof”? Certainly isn’t anything that we’d recognise as a contract proof in Europe. The media was stuff that I wouldn’t even put through a photocopier — fluorescing with optical brighteners. There was no paper white simulation and no information strip to tell us what profiles had been used, what device, ink set, calibration dates etc. There was a media wedge — but no measurements or pass stickers. And, massive technical issues with the proofing aside, the job looked absolutely diabolical — shadows blocked, colours mangled, no compensation for the yellow stock. I’m sure that anybody else here who is in the business of delivering repro to printers sees this all to often. The specs we receive from US printers and publications range from terrible to non-existent. The thought of the US print industry setting standards for the rest of us is a joke. -- Martin Orpen Idea Digital Imaging Ltd
Excuse me I misspoke. I meant -- and meant to say -- large and grand format inkjet printers. The post to which I was specifically responding when I wrote this was about solvent inkjet, and that's the the only arena I've dealt in now for many years. Mike On Mar 1, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Martin Orpen wrote:
On 25 Feb 2015, at 21:57, G Mike Adams <typhoon@correctcolor.org> wrote:
"Convert to SWOP"?
That I'm just going to have to take your word for, because all I can say is that I work exclusively with large and grand format printers, have for some 9 years now, and have never walked into a client's shop that was doing that.
What?
I’m working on a project right now where that is exactly what has happened.
Large brochure, 36x 16” x 24” spreads on an uncoated yellow stock. Each spread has one large or two single page images from international fashion campaigns — so the expectations are high. International client, UK design team and US printer.
US printer instruction: “convert the images to US Web Coated SWOP v2”
UK design team: “why are we converting an uncoated print job to a coated profile?”
US printer: “We sort out everything at this end with curves. We’ll send ‘G7 proofs’ for you to sign off”
UK designers convert and send and then wait for the proofs. Proofs arrived last Thursday.
WTF is a “G7 Proof”? Certainly isn’t anything that we’d recognise as a contract proof in Europe.
The media was stuff that I wouldn’t even put through a photocopier — fluorescing with optical brighteners. There was no paper white simulation and no information strip to tell us what profiles had been used, what device, ink set, calibration dates etc.
There was a media wedge — but no measurements or pass stickers.
And, massive technical issues with the proofing aside, the job looked absolutely diabolical — shadows blocked, colours mangled, no compensation for the yellow stock.
I’m sure that anybody else here who is in the business of delivering repro to printers sees this all to often. The specs we receive from US printers and publications range from terrible to non-existent.
The thought of the US print industry setting standards for the rest of us is a joke.
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On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:02 PM, John Lund <john@jwlimages.com> wrote:
This *is* the issue, at least to the extent that it means everyone will reduce the color & tonal range in their files to "SWOP".
You keep saying this and it makes no sense. Again, SWOP is a type of press not a specific press condition. No more than writing: "This *is* the issue, at least to the extent that it means everyone will reduce the color & tonal range in their files to "RGB". Which RGB? The CMYK numbers are either ideal for the output conditions or they are not. Using SWOP in a sentence tells us nothing about the color space other than it's CMYK. It tells us we are printing to a Web press. Nothing more. There are literally hundreds of flavors of SWOP as there are hundreds of ways one can alter the press, paper, ink, etc to produce a differing result. SWOPV2 is a specific flavor or recipe of CMYK, based on a specific press condition. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
SWOPv2 is long deprecated, it's not funny. The fact that many unknowledgeable users (whatever their number is) and a few less scrupulous RIP manufacturers (the better RIP manufacturers don't do this at all) continue using SWOPv2 as a source or destination color space is a testimony that color does not matter all that much anymore. As long as the thing does not look gray, right? Ignorance is bliss. Best / Roger
On Feb 26, 2015, at 6:26 AM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
SWOPv2 is long deprecated, it's not funny.
What does that mean Roger? Are you stating that there are NO shops in the US conforming to TR001? Let's even forget about the rest of the world where AFAIK, it's not illegal for some print shop to target that kind of conversion based on their press behavior.
The fact that many unknowledgeable users (whatever their number is) and a few less scrupulous RIP manufacturers (the better RIP manufacturers don't do this at all) continue using SWOPv2 as a source or destination color space is a testimony that color does not matter all that much anymore.
There's only one really right answer here and lots of wrong ones. As I've said, you either know how to target a conversion, CMYK or othterwise, or you don't. Unless you are absolutely certain that the existence of TR001/SWOPV2 has ceased to exist on this planet, it IS the proper option for those users. Just what are you proposing? Eliminating the install of the SWOPV2 profile serves no purpose. Change the default CMYK setting in Color Settings from SWOPV2? That alone will solve the issues of uneducated users picking the wrong profile? That's not going to happen in Photoshop. We still have the dreadful legacy CMYK engine in PS that greatly predates ICC color management implemented in 1998. Now if you want to write an Automate script that changes the profile to (dog knows what), and think that will solve what you appear to believe is a huge color problem, I'd be happy to help. How this automate function would correctly understand what profile to install (since this issue is with users who don't know otherwise) will be the tought part! Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
Andrew, You wrote:
We still have the dreadful legacy CMYK engine in PS that greatly predates ICC color management implemented in 1998.
Correct. It is still there but it's only collecting dust, Photoshop APIs convert colors within the ICC framework since CS5. Come on! / Roger
On Feb 26, 2015, at 9:26 AM, Roger Breton <graxx@videotron.ca> wrote:
Correct. It is still there but it's only collecting dust, Photoshop APIs convert colors within the ICC framework since CS5. Come on!
It's there because users still access that functionality (where's Dan Margulis, champ this area these days)? It would be expensive to remove, update documentation and it would break old workflows. The legacy CMYK option is a big hurt-me button but some users are masochist and there's no reason for Adobe to remove it. People have to accept responsibility for the wrong buttons they press.
Start "small" and you end up "small". Start "big" and you end up "big". SWOPv2 is "small" compared to GRACoL.
Again I don't know what your point is (I doubt you're talking gamut). Are more shops using GRACoL than SWOPV2? Perhaps. Do you have real data to back up either? Doesn't matter. No matter what default is used, it's not prefect for everyone. The print industry has to take responsibility for this 'issue' rather than expect Adobe to alter the defaults and magically the world of color is now sailing smoothly. I feel for you and the print industries issues dealing with cluless end users but really, that's your problem, not Adobe's. Because they are in a lose/lose situation unless every CMYK output used the same processes and that's not going happen. Rather than your industry continue to expect Adobe fix this "issue", the print industy should create a script or process that will alter the CMYK settings as they desire for their specific output. But nothing will be 100%. Dumb users will still use the wrong profile, not load the script to set the profile etc. Education is the key, that's your job or my job, and the end users job. Make them send you tagged RGB if they are simple too clueless to convert their data to CMYK. OK, so they load the correct profile but they resample the image down too low and save as a JPEG with severe compression. Adobe's supposed to also fix that? People who accept files for output have to figure a way to get their customers to provide the data as they need, simple as that. This problem you report isn't akin to someone's car spontaneously accelerating by itself, it is the driver slamming his foot on the gass pedal and the driver, not the manufacturer of the car is at falut here. IF Photoshop converted a file to SWOPV2 when the end user asked for GRACoL, you'd have a case against Adobe. That's not the situation. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
On Feb 26, 2015, at 11:18 AM, Andrew Rodney wrote:
Are more shops using GRACoL than SWOPV2?
No, Andrew. They're not. I can assure you of that. Not large format, anyway. I'd say that "most" -- meaning somewhere north of 50% -- of large format shops these days are not using CMYK at all. They're using RGB, but still using defaults, and are without a real good grounding in color spaces. However they do get files from clients that are CMYK, and it's for these files that the RIP defaults exist. And 99.9999% of these files are SWOP. That's just the way it is. There are of course the G7 peddlers out there in the large format industry, preaching the values of this worthless process in this industry, and some of them recommend Gracol, but from what I've seen and heard, most of them really don't understand the whole concept of workflow to even really understand why they do. Mike
On Feb 26, 2015, at 10:40 AM, G Mike Adams <typhoon@correctcolor.org> wrote:
However they do get files from clients that are CMYK, and it's for these files that the RIP defaults exist. And 99.9999% of these files are SWOP. That's just the way it is.
Then the fix should be relatively easy for those 99.9999%? Convert (don't convert) or demand RGB seems a good start. And if Adobe alters the defaults, which is unlikely to happen, what happens to those 99.9999% and those that don't upgrade Photoshop? More chaos. Print providers who accept output ready files are the folks who have to deal with this issue at the root.
There are of course the G7 peddlers out there in the large format industry, preaching the values of this worthless process in this industry, and some of them recommend Gracol, but from what I've seen and heard, most of them really don't understand the whole concept of workflow to even really understand why they do.
Then their clients are screwed no matter what Adobe does. Andrew Rodney http://www.digitaldog.net/
It seems that Don Hutcheson has made a contribution to this debate but it's under another subject - SWOPVs.2 Vs G7. Mark On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:52 AM, Andrew Rodney <andrew@digitaldog.net> wrote:
On Feb 26, 2015, at 10:40 AM, G Mike Adams <typhoon@correctcolor.org> wrote:
However they do get files from clients that are CMYK, and it's for these files that the RIP defaults exist. And 99.9999% of these files are SWOP. That's just the way it is.
Then the fix should be relatively easy for those 99.9999%? Convert (don't convert) or demand RGB seems a good start.
And if Adobe alters the defaults, which is unlikely to happen, what happens to those 99.9999% and those that don't upgrade Photoshop? More chaos. Print providers who accept output ready files are the folks who have to deal with this issue at the root.
There are of course the G7 peddlers out there in the large format industry, preaching the values of this worthless process in this industry, and some of them recommend Gracol, but from what I've seen and heard, most of them really don't understand the whole concept of workflow to even really understand why they do.
Then their clients are screwed no matter what Adobe does.
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On Feb 26, 2015, at 7:26 AM, Roger Breton wrote:
SWOPv2 is long deprecated, it's not funny.
The fact that many unknowledgeable users (whatever their number is) and a few less scrupulous RIP manufacturers (the better RIP manufacturers don't do this at all) continue using SWOPv2 as a source or destination color space is a testimony that color does not matter all that much anymore. As long as the thing does not look gray, right?
"Less scrupulous RIP manufacturers"? A default has to be something. Why on earth would it be "unscrupulous" to set the expected incoming CMYK space in your RIP to be the default working CMYK space in virtually every brand and type of image creation software out there? I just do not get that. What would possibly be gained by making it something else? As far as destination spaces go, I'm not aware of a single RIP manufacturer that does that -- uses SWOP as a destination color space, that is, and I can tell you such a RIP does not exist in large or grand format, and can't almost by definition. By definition, every large or grand format RIP out there is set up to be able to point to and use generated media profiles for a particular device as destination color spaces, and there can be any number of them, because such is the nature of the beast. There simply isn't in any large or grand format RIP out there with a default you can select for outgoing space. You have to select a generated media. Since SWOP is just an ICC profile, and has no RIP-generated inking information, the only way to use it as an outgoing color space would be to build a media in the RIP, and then add SWOP to it as the ICC. Absolutely no one does this. Mike
participants (6)
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Andrew Rodney
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G Mike Adams
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John Lund
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Mark Stegman
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Martin Orpen
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Roger Breton