August 2006 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: Non-priv way to collect job stats under Intel?
by Erik Paulson 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com User-agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i On Tue, Aug 01, 2006 at 07:37:17AM -0400, Jeffrey Johnson wrote: > > > >If you want to get your current code to work, the recommended way to > >do this is to factor out the stuff that has to run privileged into a > >separate setuid root tool. <...> > > Thanks, but this seems like overkill just to get CPU stats for processes we own. > > We don't require any authorization dialogs anywhere (drag across install) and some of our customers > are in some, ah, slighly paranoid environments where a third party SUID-root tool would put us at a > disadvantage because they'd have to spend resources auditing the tool (and our competitors don't > have any such tools to audit). We may have to end up shelling out to ps on intel boxes... > > We have the exact same problem with our software, and we too think we're going to just start popen()ing ps. Our software can be run as non-root, but it needs to track the status of its children. It's especially frustrating becuase we only want to call task_for_pid on processes that have the same UID as our tracking process, so we really don't want to be root. Installing a setuid() helper, or even becoming root briefly during the install to join the procmod group seems like a bad idea- I don't think anyone wants software that doesn't really need or want root to have to ask for it; it seems that users should be naturally suspicious of any software that asks for the administrative passwords, and the more software that asks for it the less suspcious users become over time. Now, obviously, task_for_pid() can be a dangerous weapon since you can do a lot more with it than just get the status of a process. Maybe Apple could provide a new API that gave read-only accesss to the task, or new APIs to trace the status of the process (I think FreeBSD has some sysctls that do most of what we need). Failing that, maybe those of us interested in this functionality could get together and create a single setuid daemon so we don't all have to create the same thing over and over again, and release it with a BSD license or something. -Erik _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Non-priv way to collect job stats under Intel?
by Jeffrey Johnson 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On 8/2/06 at 12:26 AM, wadeslists(a)mac.com wrote: >> We don't require any authorization dialogs anywhere (drag across install) >> and some of our customers are in some, ah, slighly paranoid environments >> where a third party SUID-root tool would put us at a disadvantage because >> they'd have to spend resources auditing the tool (and our competitors don't >> have any such tools to audit). We may have to end up shelling out to ps on >>intel boxes... > >So, can you not use NSTask or similar mechanism to run ps directly? By "shelling out" we'd be using popen(/bin/ps ....). This isn't a Cocoa app, so NSTask is out, and from my limited understanding it appears to me an NSTask() approach would create a new process every time ps was run as well. I was hoping we could keep from creating new processes just to check on an existing one. :-) Thanks Jeffrey Johnson Macintosh Development Wavefunction, Inc. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Non-priv way to collect job stats under Intel?
by wadeslists＠mac.com 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com So, can you not use NSTask or similar mechanism to run ps directly? Wade Tregaskis ICQ: 40056898 AIM, Yahoo & Skype: wadetregaskis MSN: wjtregaskis(a)students.latrobe.edu.au iChat & email: wadetregaskis(a)mac.com Jabber: wadetregaskis(a)jabber.org Google Talk: wadetregaskis(a)gmail.com http://homepage.mac.com/wadetregaskis/ -- Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… We don't require any authorization dialogs anywhere (drag across install) and some of our customers are in some, ah, slighly paranoid environments where a third party SUID-root tool would put us at a disadvantage because they'd have to spend resources auditing the tool (and our competitors don't have any such tools to audit). We may have to end up shelling out to ps on intel boxes... This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Non-priv way to collect job stats under Intel?
by Jeffrey Johnson 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Hi Garth, On 7/31/06 at 3:30 PM, gcummings(a)apple.com (Garth Cummings) wrote: >Hi Jeffrey, > >On Jul 31, 2006, at 3:19 PM, Jeffrey Johnson wrote: > >> We're making a universal binary of an app that calls task_for_pid >> () on PPC to gather cputime >> statistics on demand for its child processes and displays the stats >> in a window in a ps-like >> fashion. (We retrieved the source for ps and found the task_for_pid >> () call). >> >> Alas, task_for_pid has gone privileged on Intel, and since ps is >> SUID root, I assume ps is still >> using task_for_pid. But we can't, since we're not (and don't want >> to be) run as root. > >If you want to get your current code to work, the recommended way to >do this is to factor out the stuff that has to run privileged into a >separate setuid root tool. Take a look at "Performing Privileged >Operations with Authorization Services" for details: > ><http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Security/Conceptual/ >authorization_concepts/index.html>. > >More info can be found via the Security topic page: > ><http://developer.apple.com/security>. Thanks, but this seems like overkill just to get CPU stats for processes we own. We don't require any authorization dialogs anywhere (drag across install) and some of our customers are in some, ah, slighly paranoid environments where a third party SUID-root tool would put us at a disadvantage because they'd have to spend resources auditing the tool (and our competitors don't have any such tools to audit). We may have to end up shelling out to ps on intel boxes... Thanks Jeffrey Johnson Macintosh Development Wavefunction, Inc. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Non-priv way to collect job stats under Intel?
by fletcher sandbeck 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On 2006-07-31 at 18:27 by bierman(a)apple.com (Peter Bierman): >At 6:19 PM -0400 7/31/06, Jeffrey Johnson wrote: >>Hello, >> >> We're making a universal binary of an app that calls task_for_pid() >>on PPC to gather cputime statistics on demand for its child >>processes and displays the stats in a window in a ps-like fashion. >>(We retrieved the source for ps and found the task_for_pid() call). > >I'm not sure what stats you want to collect, but check out `man getrusage`. > >If that works, it's a much more portable way to accomplish that task. I don't think this will work for the OP since it says "BUGS There is no way to obtain information about a child process that has not yet terminated." and what he is looking for is information about the active child processes. [fletcher] _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Non-priv way to collect job stats under Intel?
by Peter Bierman 01 Aug '06

01 Aug '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Hello, I'm not sure what stats you want to collect, but check out `man getrusage`. If that works, it's a much more portable way to accomplish that task. -pmb _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… At 6:19 PM -0400 7/31/06, Jeffrey Johnson wrote: We're making a universal binary of an app that calls task_for_pid() on PPC to gather cputime statistics on demand for its child processes and displays the stats in a window in a ps-like fashion. (We retrieved the source for ps and found the task_for_pid() call). This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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