December 2007 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Terry Lambert 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Dec 31, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86286 In other words, pilot error. -- Terry _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On Dec 31, 2007, at 8:08 AM, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh(a)apple.com> wrote: On Dec 31, 2007, at 7:59 AM, Brian Mastenbrook wrote: On Dec 31, 2007, at 6:20 AM, David Alger wrote: You wouldn't convince me of that unless you could show me documentation, as Apple condones and tell everybody that they can run with an external display and keyboard & have the lid closed. You're talking to Apple people on this list, obviously, so if you can point US to documentation which clearly states that "Apple condones and tells everyone they can do this", I think we'd all love to see it. Since you're asking for proof that it's not condoned, I think it's only reasonable to ask you for proof in turn that it is. :-) "How to use your PowerBook G4, MacBook Pro or MacBook with the display closed" Thanks much for the citation. Clearly, I'd never read that before, and it represents an interesting collision between "conventional wisdom" and "the documentation." I'd always heard, both inside and outside of Apple, that running a mac laptop of almost any ilk with the lid closed was a dicey proposition given the variances of heat dissipation. Various "it happened to me!" pictures have been posted on the web which show melted keyboards and the like (though we have, of course, no absolutely clear notion of what has happened in these cases). It's certainly been enough to put a lot of people off the idea, which is probably where Terry was coming from (gah! I'm defending Terry, that's never a good sign). - Jordan There's no contradiction here. The original question is about "how do I write code that would thwart power and thermal management for undisclosed reasons?". Running with the lid closed and an external monitor/projector and keyboard+mouse is a fully supported configuration, so long as he accepts that without adequate ventilation and cooling, he's subject to thermal throttling. "Adequate" here translates to "must be better with the lid closed than for the same performance with the lid open". Most of the "cooked" machines I have seen -- I believe the most spectacular one was Guido's IBM ThinkPad, before he learned how to throttle it down and turn off the backlight under FreeBSD; Jordan can correct me -- were not Macs. They happened either because the OS software, like Linux or FreeBSD, failed to implement thermal management at all, or the drivers that were supposed to talk to them were bogus or missing, or someone deliberately went out of their way to disable it (i.e.: someone answered the question that was asked here, and a programmer took the information and shot his foot off). Now it's my general understanding that the question is being asked for a much more specific reason, which has yet to be stated -- can the original poster chime in with his reason here, please?!? I can think of a number of legitimate and quasi-legitimate reasons for wanting this, but unless he narrows the scope of the question, they are unlikely to find themselves supported. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

darwinbuild for gcc_os using 9A581.plist
by Michael Franz 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=64jGuzDFVprpJ+3h2IbmnDrcu1As+h2jGR0L0silkHA=; b=BDBSmNg2sRXU11GXjk2chB9M95wu7bCXPRSbuLHcKYHwYj2EMmKt/0zExZ1R5f/cinyF5mK7ftDXmtutQGJpXw8IUf9KDQW3FjnarVMldUukjEXixTs4QYP1eOmbxYm1wRY0TOj3QFNE/IbLD4s5EooWo91doqZtYO3B50m/kWo= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=GbwVVCQwVXe2/Br+zCj//D9SqRNnPcJNV25TZ0tzA9kyHRpcpJAt2bvxo+0eIcfHprQyujWpxmAicVcocjf9fK2t04Gsy046rEt/WjPSJClFQdHCyeq7C+FJDJ7jYQ8Yu2fabkFzOacecKCxnB9ZNL6MBeBhWijOW7qhFk04aoI= _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Stephen Hoffman 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Organization: HoffmanLabs LLC User-agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) http://macscripter.net/articles/468_0_10_0_C/ http://www.apple.com/applescript/features/system-prefs.html http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.5/PowerManagement/ http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.5/IOKitUser/pwr_mgt.subproj/ http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.5/xnu/iokit/IOKit/pwr_mgt/ Andrew James writes The users are 100% fine with the idea and all i want to know is if its possible and if so how, it seems no matter where i ask this question i am confronted with other developers views and not a solution There are several fully supported approaches toward this end. The easiest is to go to System Preferences, to Energy Saver, and to disable sleep. I'd expect you could probably toss an AppleScript after the preferences, too. Here are some related articles to that end: Or you could fully manage the user's environment and settings, establish the requisite settings, and lock out access to the Energy Saver preferences. This is often best in a production-oriented environment, as it avoids dealing with changes to the run-time. And then there is the pmset tool available at the shell. See man pmset for details on that. Here are some details from the Darwin source pool: Off-hand, I don't know if there's a way to capture an (asynchronous) change in the user's preferences settings. That might well be massively useful here. With the change notification, you could react appropriately at run time. And regardless of the preferences settings, I'd still tend to code to expect to see a sleep request at run-time. The "big sleep" here being a hard power-down, and that's something you still have to plan for. When it is difficult or impossible to find official documentation within a particular area of an operating system, there's usually a reason for the omission. One of those can be a wish to avoid support costs. (That's as close as I'll come to expressing a view here.) _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Michael Smith 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Dec 31, 2007, at 8:29 AM, Amanda Walker <amanda(a)alfar.com> wrote: Note that these instructions *do not prevent sleep*, which is what Andrew was asking about. >From this it seems reasonable to assume that "waking up with the lid closed and an external display attached" is a different case from "don't go to sleep when the lid is closed." This is correct. = Mike What is missing here is an understanding of the basic principle driving the system's behaviour in this case: if the user tells the system to do something, it should do it. It should not argue, quibble, lie or misrepresent itself. It should do what it's told in a timely and consistent fashion. If the user does not want the system to sleep, the user *should*not*tell*the*system*to*sleep*. It might be reasonable to ask Apple for a preference which dissociates closing the lid from the act of putting the system to sleep, although I would strongly expect that this would be refused for several sensible reasons, but it is *not* reasonable to ask for a programmatic way to subvert the user's intent in the fashion the OP desires. p.s. If you wonder why such a preference would probably be refused, examine the Apple support forums and other web archives for complaints from users relating to systems that fail (due to bugs or hardware issues) to sleep when expected, and add the likely incidence of user error and malicious/incompetent/well-meaning-but-wrong-headed programmatic manipulation of the preference to the number you encounter. The result would not be pretty. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Amanda Walker 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com --Amanda _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On Dec 31, 2007, at 11:08 AM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: Thanks much for the citation. Clearly, I'd never read that before, and it represents an interesting collision between "conventional wisdom" and "the documentation." I'd always heard, both inside and outside of Apple, that running a mac laptop of almost any ilk with the lid closed was a dicey proposition given the variances of heat dissipation. It is. More modern laptops (including Macs) have fans for active cooling, in contrast to earlier ones which vented via convection through the keyboard, but you still need airflow. If you close the lid and throw your laptop in a case or sleeve without it going to sleep, you can very easily overheat it, and possibly damage it permanently. After one incident of the latch popping loose in the case (which made a MacBook Pro heat up so much it was quite literally too hot to pick up), I routinely use pmset to disable lidwake completely. My interpretation of "you can operate a laptop with the lid closed only if you have an external display and keyboard attached" is that it's a safety interlock--if you have an external display and keyboard attached, it's very likely that the machine is not closed up in a case, and thus has sufficient airflow. Now, it could be argued that the test should be based on actual temperature, not on the presence of external devices. This is how desktop machines generally work (example: liquid-cooled CPUs when the pumps fail). However, given the somewhat convoluted thermal environment of a modern laptop, testing for external connections seems like a reasonable compromise. Going back to Andrew's original question, though... Andrew, can you give us a better idea of the use case you're trying to implement? There may be other ways to solve your actual problem. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Marc Epard 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:05 AM, Amanda Walker wrote: -Marc _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… >From this it seems reasonable to assume that "waking up with the lid closed and an external display attached" is a different case from "don't go to sleep when the lid is closed." True. I filed a bug against the current lid-opening/lid-closing behavior with an external keyboard and monitor connected. Currently opening the lid does nothing - the built-in screen is dark. Closing the lid makes it sleep. It seems to me it should act as if the built- in display is being connected or disconnected and add it or remove it from the desktop. The bug was marked as a duplicate of 4403568. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Robert T Wyatt 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Organization: The University of Texas at Austin User-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Amanda Walker wrote: On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:59 AM, Brian Mastenbrook wrote: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86286 "How to use your PowerBook G4, MacBook Pro or MacBook with the display closed" Note that these instructions *do not prevent sleep*, which is what Andrew was asking about. In this case, "not triggering sleep" is equivalent. As long as "sleep: never" works in the control panel then the desired effect is achieved. BTW, I'm not necessarily an advocate for disabling what I consider to be a useful security feature (forcing sleep upon closing the lid). From this it seems reasonable to assume that "waking up with the lid closed and an external display attached" is a different case from "don't go to sleep when the lid is closed." --Amanda This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Jordan K. Hubbard 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Dec 31, 2007, at 7:59 AM, Brian Mastenbrook wrote: On Dec 31, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: On Dec 31, 2007, at 6:20 AM, David Alger wrote: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86286 - Jordan _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… You wouldn't convince me of that unless you could show me documentation, as Apple condones and tell everybody that they can run with an external display and keyboard & have the lid closed. You're talking to Apple people on this list, obviously, so if you can point US to documentation which clearly states that "Apple condones and tells everyone they can do this", I think we'd all love to see it. Since you're asking for proof that it's not condoned, I think it's only reasonable to ask you for proof in turn that it is. :-) "How to use your PowerBook G4, MacBook Pro or MacBook with the display closed" Thanks much for the citation. Clearly, I'd never read that before, and it represents an interesting collision between "conventional wisdom" and "the documentation." I'd always heard, both inside and outside of Apple, that running a mac laptop of almost any ilk with the lid closed was a dicey proposition given the variances of heat dissipation. Various "it happened to me!" pictures have been posted on the web which show melted keyboards and the like (though we have, of course, no absolutely clear notion of what has happened in these cases). It's certainly been enough to put a lot of people off the idea, which is probably where Terry was coming from (gah! I'm defending Terry, that's never a good sign). This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Marc Epard 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Cancel Sleep
by Amanda Walker 31 Dec '07

31 Dec '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com --Amanda _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:59 AM, Brian Mastenbrook wrote: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86286 "How to use your PowerBook G4, MacBook Pro or MacBook with the display closed" Note that these instructions *do not prevent sleep*, which is what Andrew was asking about. >From this it seems reasonable to assume that "waking up with the lid closed and an external display attached" is a different case from "don't go to sleep when the lid is closed." This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0