August 2007 - Darwin-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: Questions about launchd
by Terry Lambert 26 Aug '07

26 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com 1991. 8^). -- Terry On Aug 25, 2007, at 11:09 PM, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh(a)apple.com> wrote: On Aug 25, 2007, at 3:33 PM, Steve Checkoway wrote: - Jordan _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/tlambert%40apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… But my point was that you could trust command line output a heck of a lot more than data interfaces. I more or less promise we won't intentionally break things unless the standards change or our upstream providers change things on us for no reason. That would be work. 8^). If you absolutley must ask the OS for information you should already know, then the way to do it is via our tools that know how to ask. We won't be breaking our tools for no reason. That would be work. 8^). Jordan, unless I'm mistaken, you're saying don't do what Terry said to do. That's correct. It wouldn't be the first time I told people not to listen to Terry, as various internet mail archives going clear back to 1993 will attest. :-) This email sent to tlambert(a)apple.com This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Questions about launchd
by Jordan K. Hubbard 26 Aug '07

26 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 25, 2007, at 3:33 PM, Steve Checkoway wrote: - Jordan _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Jordan, unless I'm mistaken, you're saying don't do what Terry said to do. That's correct. It wouldn't be the first time I told people not to listen to Terry, as various internet mail archives going clear back to 1993 will attest. :-) This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Question about libresolv.
by Kevin Van Vechten 25 Aug '07

25 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com It's provided by the 'netinfo' project. - Kevin On Aug 25, 2007, at 9:33 AM, Terry Simons wrote: Hi, Are Darwin's libresolv sources available? Thanks, _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… If so, which package does that library live in? I couldn't find "libresolv" on the darwin Intel sources page. - Terry This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Question about libresolv.
by Finlay Dobbie 25 Aug '07

25 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PYGTQ4Vk9G+CyGnMcsPu/8Xsn6UiIQV/PpSt3A5PI8SunsKUK7KJaPCAFKNkiW480DA0xuASKXa3zWW21Qcevyh8F3t8NlwRdeJDQr0ONLTes2I0zbMPGm+0zldeGU7uXIWXJyy+vL3R6LRs/bP9ZkeN0f49I1ri8jeA2tA6q44= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Ri85y3kcgAzyj/7MrL/zZxIc+171uLwTs2dXB5nL9KamMmiZOupnr2YqRLOzPDRt31fbSC6eQhZMALuIhcb8Pu5rKwtLnbe+ajSRSj5fDSVd6+rtFcOOc7Koech1fjqzgA5KuhzcpcihnU7TZAE7KNs0JTMD+Fscm3YYqgV1Ylg= On 25/08/07, Terry Simons <galimore(a)mac.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Are Darwin's libresolv sources available? > > If so, which package does that library live in? I couldn't find > "libresolv" on the darwin Intel sources page. http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.9.x86/netinfo-369.6/resol… -- Finlay _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Questions about launchd
by Steve Checkoway 25 Aug '07

25 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 25, 2007, at 11:51 AM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: On Aug 25, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Finlay Dobbie wrote: On Aug 24, 2007, at 11:17 PM, Terry Lambert wrote: -- Steve Checkoway _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Yes, but we were discussing the fragility of parsing tool output. OK, well, that's an easy discussion: Don't do that. popen of lsof will work, assuming you use the output format specifiers to prevent it from changing output format on you, or simply look at the found/not fond return value. The point of forcing you to write wrappers around standard tools instead of doing what the tool does is to ensure you that when the system is updated, you are guaranteed that the tools are updated at the same time that the kernel and other system components are updated, so your code will continue working, even if we change the system interface used by the tool. Jordan, unless I'm mistaken, you're saying don't do what Terry said to do. smime.p7s

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Re: Questions about launchd
by Jordan K. Hubbard 25 Aug '07

25 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 25, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Finlay Dobbie wrote: OK, well, that's an easy discussion: Don't do that. Q) What if I really want to parse command line output? A) I don't care. Don't do that. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Yes, but we were discussing the fragility of parsing tool output. If that's too terse of an answer, here's a little example Q&A session that elaborates: Q) But... Parsing command output is easier than writing C code which does the same thing through API calls! What do you say to that? A) Don't do that. Q) Isn't there some sort of tacit agreement to keep command-line output formats the same forever, as God and Dennis Ritchie intended? A) No. Don't do that. Q) What if I'm one of those scripting types who believes that compilers are an abomination? Can I parse command-line output then? A) No. Don't do that. Use Ruby, Python or Perl and some of the fine API shims they provide for doing such things. Q) Aren't you being just a tad inflexible about all of this? A) Yes, but you still shouldn't do that. We reserve the right to change command-line output at any time (sometimes it's not even us, but our upstream OSS providers) and when your scripts break, we'll both be sad and wishing you'd followed the advice in this Q&A. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Questions about launchd
by Finlay Dobbie 25 Aug '07

25 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rRtrp6YkIKkfEl7rrjpmnV0esSAtt+wNY+2zPGrfglmY8QaWyrQUiDoziNlmYi5jtQ+SpMD+Re8KjaSLfVNUN7xknxkaI0qzsK6on+6BDnLVHH8wUP2ZtwyYYam+dQWVvA7bTmvR7Xq+5/p8D4WlVbXmziVreu7UVHeMFawYR88= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hXkjqgDzh6qnpJ9zIHiCWf6aozvsL7pYf9az1r1Ad5E3uAqk1K4IzqcH8qwyH8oeom+/6bTfqKnPfx8AFZ/+dk6IQWtSJI5XCOKpM6cYBsrd9Bpw5Lq2gcrNUHEhjF6TBenmMPgXBy3PKgmYyZaKQeBpDOrMkqJ3Jgr1aj3At3M= On 25/08/07, Jordan K. Hubbard <jkh(a)apple.com> wrote: > setenv COMPAT_MODE legacy > > Will bring the "old behavior" back for commands. Compiling the binary > on Tiger (or against the Tiger SDK) will give you legacy behavior for > the API calls. Yes, but we were discussing the fragility of parsing tool output. -- Finlay _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Questions about launchd
by Jordan K. Hubbard 25 Aug '07

25 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Aug 25, 2007, at 11:12 AM, Finlay Dobbie wrote: As you know, I am well aware of UNIX03. However, this only applies to Leopard and has almost certainly necessitated some non-backwards compatible changes to userland tools compared to Tiger setenv COMPAT_MODE legacy - Jordan _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… Actually, it applies in significant part to Tiger as well. Even though Tiger was not officially certified, there's a surprising amount of UNIX conformance change (to the commands) in it already. Conformance was a multi-release project. Will bring the "old behavior" back for commands. Compiling the binary on Tiger (or against the Tiger SDK) will give you legacy behavior for the API calls. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Questions about launchd
by Finlay Dobbie 25 Aug '07

25 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=W2IN+MMAvYf1bM/rWcqQSTk+OP/5Bp25YJb9yIjm2faXrUFgatD00Yb6iqWDUEnJ7LLWpHk6se9MMLhj4g/ngZONzKUALJyVT8o3RkwgRvWWdBQuznXGwuLoAGjWWLveiwwVePRcbj4YzhMH94nQAq2QpCS5EtNI+VU/+h1WPmE= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hkapTlbq0TYvDCh2NRu9/8PpIFZ25sNZkmo1eH3nhYz5kNFJRHux7NShSH6jBgxfELkdHWqcKoN4A2QVACLw2Ec+iCtqOWnGFEgKo3zKe/FbtAh+TMI9+PgIFSGBg/o48Kwxmcc39I+wwnNwzo9lqDLUnt/n6oQ9p2cOC9tUWZo= On 25/08/07, Jordan K. Hubbard <jkh(a)apple.com> wrote: > > > On Aug 25, 2007, at 4:40 AM, Finlay Dobbie wrote: > On 25/08/07, Terry Lambert <tlambert(a)apple.com> wrote: > Certain command conform to standards, and for those commands, we more > or less say we expect that they will continue to conform to standards. > > Which commands? What standards? > > The commands being the ones that The Open Group has decided fall under the > "UNIX umbrella." The standard being that codified by UNIX03 (and possibly > later revisions thereof). Jordan, As you know, I am well aware of UNIX03. However, this only applies to Leopard, and has almost certainly necessitated some non-backwards compatible changes to userland tools compared to Tiger. It might be true going fowards, but it's not necessarily true today ;o) -- Finlay _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Questions about launchd
by Jordan K. Hubbard 25 Aug '07

25 Aug '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-dev mailing list (Darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-dev/site_archiver%40lists.app… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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