April 2003 - Darwin-kernel - lists.apple.com

Re: unkillable process ?
by Justin Walker 06 Apr '03

06 Apr '03

On Saturday, Apr 5, 2003, at 18:01 US/Pacific, Jean-Edouard BABIN wrote: Justin Walker icrit: thanks for your information The existence of a zombie is not that strange; it's unusual, but not unheard of. This could be a bug. You can file a report (<http://bugreport.apple.com>) or try to reproduce it and then file a report. yes i will do this. You can determine the parent process's id by something like "ps -oppid -aux", and the first column of the output will contain the process's parent's pid. PPID is 0 ;) with you command i have just see that i also have 0 root 8000 0.0 0.0 0 0 con- Z 1Jan70 0:00.00 (X11) (i have used X11 today) i will try to find why this append, but i think it will be quite difficult Why it happens is not that difficult: here, the X11.app process exited, but the parent (Finder, in all likelihood) did not "wait(2)" for it. For X11, it is a known bug. Your earlier case (iTunes) may be the same problem, but it is worth filing a bug so that Apple can track the problem. In any case, the occurrence of a Zombie process is a problem for the parent process, not for the Zombie process. Regards, Justin -- Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large * Institute for General Semantics | It's not whether you win or lose... | It's whether *I* win or lose. *--------------------------------------*-------------------------------* _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Jean-Edouard BABIN 06 Apr '03

06 Apr '03

Justin Walker icrit: thanks for your information > The existence of a zombie is not that strange; it's unusual, but not > unheard of. This could be a bug. You can file a report > (<http://bugreport.apple.com>) or try to reproduce it and then file a > report. yes i will do this. > You can determine the parent process's id by something like "ps -oppid > -aux", and the first column of the output will contain the process's > parent's pid. PPID is 0 ;) with you command i have just see that i also have 0 root 8000 0.0 0.0 0 0 con- Z 1Jan70 0:00.00 (X11) (i have used X11 today) i will try to find why this append, but i think it will be quite difficult -- Jean-Edouard BABIN Jeb-Soft: http://www.jeb.com.fr _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Justin Walker 06 Apr '03

06 Apr '03

On Saturday, Apr 5, 2003, at 16:46 US/Pacific, Philip Parker wrote: On Saturday, Apr 5, 2003, at 15:16 US/Pacific, Justin Walker wrote: On Saturday, Apr 5, 2003, at 14:52 US/Pacific, Jean-Edouard BABIN wrote: I have an unkillable process also... You can't kill what's already dead. root 7040 0.0 0.0 0 0 con- Z 1Jan70 0:00.00 (iTunes) # kill 7040 7040: No such process [snip] The only reason it is kept around is that the Unix kernel (Darwin) wants to give its (the process's) status to the process's parent, if it asks. Process status is given to the parent (or the 'init' process, if the parent has exited) when that process executes a wait(3) system call. At that point, the status is passed to the caller, and the process slot is cleared out, and the process really goes away. Quite stange no ? I never see that before I think there a problem with ipod, itunes still work corectly but ipod is not recognized in it.. The existence of a zombie is not that strange; it's unusual, but not unheard of. This could be a bug. You can file a report (<http://bugreport.apple.com>) or try to reproduce it and then file a report. You can determine the parent process's id by something like "ps -oppid -aux", and the first column of the output will contain the process's parent's pid. You can try killing the parent, or just rebooting to see if the problem recurs. You might find that this process's PPID is 0 Yup; in fact that is the case. That's what happens when the parent exits and the child gets "attached" to init. I should have been more explicit in my comments above. ... in some older NIX's, the per process data area (1 page), and the process slot were all that remained. I had a similar issue a few days ago with an Applescript, it was a zombie, owned by root, with a PPID of 0 ... I rebooted the system to clear it as the Applescript would not run. It should have been owned by me (501), with a PPID of either 1 or an existing parent process. I do not know if this is expected behavior with OS X, and have yet to peruse the source to check. It is the case; and I think it's generally true (although I won't refund any money if I'm wrong :-}) on Unices. I believe that ownership stays valid. ps -lp PID for the PPID On my system (10.2.4), I get just the headline; the '-o' trick works for me. Regards, Justin -- /~\ The ASCII Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-at-Large \ / Ribbon Campaign X Help cure HTML Email / \ _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Philip Parker 06 Apr '03

06 Apr '03

On Saturday, Apr 5, 2003, at 15:16 US/Pacific, Justin Walker wrote: On Saturday, Apr 5, 2003, at 14:52 US/Pacific, Jean-Edouard BABIN wrote: I have an unkillable process also... You can't kill what's already dead. root 7040 0.0 0.0 0 0 con- Z 1Jan70 0:00.00 (iTunes) # kill 7040 7040: No such process This is what is known as a "zombie" process (that's what the 'Z' in the status field means). A zombie process has exited, and no longer ties up any system resources other than a slot in the process table. It has no memory, no process id (that is useful), or anything else normally associated with a process. The only reason it is kept around is that the Unix kernel (Darwin) wants to give its (the process's) status to the process's parent, if it asks. Process status is given to the parent (or the 'init' process, if the parent has exited) when that process executes a wait(3) system call. At that point, the status is passed to the caller, and the process slot is cleared out, and the process really goes away. Quite stange no ? I never see that before I think there a problem with ipod, itunes still work corectly but ipod is not recognized in it.. The existence of a zombie is not that strange; it's unusual, but not unheard of. This could be a bug. You can file a report (<http://bugreport.apple.com>) or try to reproduce it and then file a report. You can determine the parent process's id by something like "ps -oppid -aux", and the first column of the output will contain the process's parent's pid. You can try killing the parent, or just rebooting to see if the problem recurs. You might find that this process's PPID is 0 ... in some older NIX's, the per process data area (1 page), and the process slot were all that remained. I had a similar issue a few days ago with an Applescript, it was a zombie, owned by root, with a PPID of 0 ... I rebooted the system to clear it as the Applescript would not run. It should have been owned by me (501), with a PPID of either 1 or an existing parent process. I do not know if this is expected behavior with OS X, and have yet to peruse the source to check. ps -lp PID for the PPID regards -- email: philip_parker(a)mac.com #include <std_disclaimer> _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Justin Walker 05 Apr '03

05 Apr '03

On Saturday, Apr 5, 2003, at 14:52 US/Pacific, Jean-Edouard BABIN wrote: I have an unkillable process also... You can't kill what's already dead. root 7040 0.0 0.0 0 0 con- Z 1Jan70 0:00.00 (iTunes) # kill 7040 7040: No such process This is what is known as a "zombie" process (that's what the 'Z' in the status field means). A zombie process has exited, and no longer ties up any system resources other than a slot in the process table. It has no memory, no process id (that is useful), or anything else normally associated with a process. The only reason it is kept around is that the Unix kernel (Darwin) wants to give its (the process's) status to the process's parent, if it asks. Process status is given to the parent (or the 'init' process, if the parent has exited) when that process executes a wait(3) system call. At that point, the status is passed to the caller, and the process slot is cleared out, and the process really goes away. Quite stange no ? I never see that before I think there a problem with ipod, itunes still work corectly but ipod is not recognized in it.. The existence of a zombie is not that strange; it's unusual, but not unheard of. This could be a bug. You can file a report (<http://bugreport.apple.com>) or try to reproduce it and then file a report. You can determine the parent process's id by something like "ps -oppid -aux", and the first column of the output will contain the process's parent's pid. You can try killing the parent, or just rebooting to see if the problem recurs. Regards, Justin -- /~\ The ASCII Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-at-Large \ / Ribbon Campaign X Help cure HTML Email / \ _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Brian Bergstrand 05 Apr '03

05 Apr '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, April 5, 2003, at 04:52 PM, Jean-Edouard BABIN wrote: > I have an unkillable process also... > > root 7040 0.0 0.0 0 0 con- Z 1Jan70 0:00.00 > (iTunes) > # kill 7040 > 7040: No such process > > Quite stange no ? I never see that before > I think there a problem with ipod, itunes still work corectly but ipod > is > not recognized in it.. That process is already dead (hence the "No such process" message). The Z stands for zombie, meaning the process has been killed and is waiting on the inactive process list to be reaped by its parent process. If the parent process is gone, then then the Z process will transfer to process 1 (init) and be reaped when it exits. Zombie processes take up almost no resources (just a miniscule amount of memory), so I wouldn't worry about it too much. HTH. Brian Bergstrand <http://www.classicalguitar.net/brian/> PGP Key ID: 0xB6C7B6A2 As we acquire more knowledge, things do not become more comprehensible, but more mysterious. - Albert Schweitzer -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPo9SmXnR2Fu2x7aiEQIdAQCeKr7nWN6oqbt3fxMRUXPYTT8UucAAoKbO blnFkdB0U3ByDq9dI35UCJQe =3zwe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Jean-Edouard BABIN 05 Apr '03

05 Apr '03

I have an unkillable process also... root 7040 0.0 0.0 0 0 con- Z 1Jan70 0:00.00 (iTunes) # kill 7040 7040: No such process Quite stange no ? I never see that before I think there a problem with ipod, itunes still work corectly but ipod is not recognized in it.. on 05/04/03 16:16, + Pejvan BEIGUI ; <pejvan(a)online.fr> wrote: > Here are some more info I found in the cdrdao manual: >> BUGS >> If the program is terminated during the write/simulation >> process used IPC resources may not be released. Use >> ipcs(8) and ipcrm(8) to delete them. > > It seems that ipcs and ipcrm are not available in Mac OS X. > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Pejvan > > Pejvan BEIGUI wrote: >> jmagee(a)apple.com wrote: >> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 12:12PM, Pejvan BEIGUI wrote: >>> >>>> I've got a real and weird problem, which seems to come from the >>>> kernel, and hence I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere >>>> else, i'm asking it here: >>>> >>>> How can anyone explain this: >>>> >>>>> [2:10:22pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 >>>>> [2:21:32pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 >>>>> [2:21:33pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 >>>>> [2:21:33pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 >>>>> [2:21:34pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 >>>>> Password: >>>>> [2:21:42pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 >>>>> [2:21:44pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 >>>>> [2:21:45pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> ps -U pejvan | grep 1026 >>>>> 1026 ?? Us 0:00.02 /Users/pejvan/devel/[...] >>> >>> >>> >>> That "U" means that the process (or more appropriately, one of the >>> threads in the process) is blocked in the kernel in an >>> "uninterruptible" state. It is unacceptable for the kernel/drivers to >>> so mark a thread and then non make forward progress on it. Do you >>> have any non-standard kernel extensions? What system call was thread >>> making when it got into this state? You can find the latter by >>> running the sample tool on the process (or attaching with gdb). >>> >> >> In fact, this error doesn't come from my sources, it comes sometimes >> when I use cdrdao. I only have one non-standard kernel extension: the >> MSMouse kext. >> I'll try to run the sample tool on it next time i get this crash, and >> I'll report it to you. "Hopefully" this week-end. >> >>>> I really need to be able to kill this process, since it totally >>>> blocks the launching of any graphical app when it crashes, and >>>> there's no way for me to restart the computer in clean way: >>>> $ sudo shutdown now >>>> will fail and after two or three minutes, I get in the text mode >>>> output, with a message telling me that there have been some IPC >>>> failure, which leads me to the question: >>>> does the process crash and blocks some stuff? (which is totally wrong >>>> on a preemptive OS) >>>> does the IPC mechanism fail somewhere and make this process crash? >>>> (which is weirder) >>> >>> >>> >>> What you asked for [with that shutdown command] was not to reboot the >>> machine, but instead to bring it back down to single-user-mode. Two >>> things of note about that: >>> >>> 1. the un-interruptible process will still be blocked, more than >>> likely, unless the shutdown killed off the facility that it was >>> blocked waiting on (not likely). >>> >>> 2. Mac OS X/Darwin does not like being brought down to single-user >>> mode after it was already running in multi-user-mode. Many of the key >>> system services are implemented in user space. Bringing the system >>> down to single-user-mode killed those off. The IPC messages you see >>> are because you killed off the mach_init process that manages the >>> namespace of public mach ports. But you also killed off the dynamic >>> pager, which manages your swap files, and it doesn't like to get >>> restarted either. >>> >>> You probably wanted "shutdown -r now" where the "-r" is to force a >>> reboot. >>> >> well, after being unsuccessfull with "sudo shutdown -r now" "sudo >> reboot" "kill -9 -1" and Apple Menu > Log Out, I tried the "sudo shutdown". >> >> Thanks for the info though, it's very intresting. >> >> I'll keep you updated anyway. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Pejvan >> _______________________________________________ >> darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com >> Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: >> http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > _______________________________________________ > darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com > Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: > http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > -- Jean-Edouard BABIN Mail: Jeb(a)jeb.com.fr Web : www.Jeb.com.fr IRC : Jeb @ Undernet _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Pejvan BEIGUI 05 Apr '03

05 Apr '03

Here are some more info I found in the cdrdao manual: > BUGS > If the program is terminated during the write/simulation > process used IPC resources may not be released. Use > ipcs(8) and ipcrm(8) to delete them. It seems that ipcs and ipcrm are not available in Mac OS X. Any suggestions? Thanks, Pejvan Pejvan BEIGUI wrote: > jmagee(a)apple.com wrote: > >> >> On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 12:12PM, Pejvan BEIGUI wrote: >> >>> I've got a real and weird problem, which seems to come from the >>> kernel, and hence I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere >>> else, i'm asking it here: >>> >>> How can anyone explain this: >>> >>> > [2:10:22pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 >>> > [2:21:32pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 >>> > [2:21:33pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 >>> > [2:21:33pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 >>> > [2:21:34pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 >>> > Password: >>> > [2:21:42pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 >>> > [2:21:44pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 >>> > [2:21:45pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> ps -U pejvan | grep 1026 >>> > 1026 ?? Us 0:00.02 /Users/pejvan/devel/[...] >> >> >> >> That "U" means that the process (or more appropriately, one of the >> threads in the process) is blocked in the kernel in an >> "uninterruptible" state. It is unacceptable for the kernel/drivers to >> so mark a thread and then non make forward progress on it. Do you >> have any non-standard kernel extensions? What system call was thread >> making when it got into this state? You can find the latter by >> running the sample tool on the process (or attaching with gdb). >> > > In fact, this error doesn't come from my sources, it comes sometimes > when I use cdrdao. I only have one non-standard kernel extension: the > MSMouse kext. > I'll try to run the sample tool on it next time i get this crash, and > I'll report it to you. "Hopefully" this week-end. > >>> I really need to be able to kill this process, since it totally >>> blocks the launching of any graphical app when it crashes, and >>> there's no way for me to restart the computer in clean way: >>> $ sudo shutdown now >>> will fail and after two or three minutes, I get in the text mode >>> output, with a message telling me that there have been some IPC >>> failure, which leads me to the question: >>> does the process crash and blocks some stuff? (which is totally wrong >>> on a preemptive OS) >>> does the IPC mechanism fail somewhere and make this process crash? >>> (which is weirder) >> >> >> >> What you asked for [with that shutdown command] was not to reboot the >> machine, but instead to bring it back down to single-user-mode. Two >> things of note about that: >> >> 1. the un-interruptible process will still be blocked, more than >> likely, unless the shutdown killed off the facility that it was >> blocked waiting on (not likely). >> >> 2. Mac OS X/Darwin does not like being brought down to single-user >> mode after it was already running in multi-user-mode. Many of the key >> system services are implemented in user space. Bringing the system >> down to single-user-mode killed those off. The IPC messages you see >> are because you killed off the mach_init process that manages the >> namespace of public mach ports. But you also killed off the dynamic >> pager, which manages your swap files, and it doesn't like to get >> restarted either. >> >> You probably wanted "shutdown -r now" where the "-r" is to force a >> reboot. >> > well, after being unsuccessfull with "sudo shutdown -r now" "sudo > reboot" "kill -9 -1" and Apple Menu > Log Out, I tried the "sudo shutdown". > > Thanks for the info though, it's very intresting. > > I'll keep you updated anyway. > > Cheers, > > Pejvan > _______________________________________________ > darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com > Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: > http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Paul Ripke 05 Apr '03

05 Apr '03

On Saturday, Apr 5, 2003, at 05:44 Australia/Sydney, Pejvan BEIGUI wrote: jmagee(a)apple.com wrote: <snip> What you asked for [with that shutdown command] was not to reboot the machine, but instead to bring it back down to single-user-mode. Two things of note about that: 1. the un-interruptible process will still be blocked, more than likely, unless the shutdown killed off the facility that it was blocked waiting on (not likely). 2. Mac OS X/Darwin does not like being brought down to single-user mode after it was already running in multi-user-mode. Many of the key system services are implemented in user space. Bringing the system down to single-user-mode killed those off. The IPC messages you see are because you killed off the mach_init process that manages the namespace of public mach ports. But you also killed off the dynamic pager, which manages your swap files, and it doesn't like to get restarted either. You probably wanted "shutdown -r now" where the "-r" is to force a reboot. well, after being unsuccessfull with "sudo shutdown -r now" "sudo reboot" "kill -9 -1" and Apple Menu > Log Out, I tried the "sudo shutdown". Not sure what effect it will have, but you can always try "sudo reboot", or "sudo reboot -q". Not sure if they'll work, but if they do, at least they should flush the FS cache. Cheers, -- Paul Ripke Unix/OpenVMS/TSM/DBA 101 reasons why you can't find your Sysadmin: 68: It's 9AM. He/She is not working that late. -- Koos van den Hout _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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Re: unkillable process ?
by Pejvan BEIGUI 04 Apr '03

04 Apr '03

jmagee(a)apple.com wrote: On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 12:12PM, Pejvan BEIGUI wrote: I've got a real and weird problem, which seems to come from the kernel, and hence I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere else, i'm asking it here: How can anyone explain this: > [2:10:22pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 > [2:21:32pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 > [2:21:33pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 > [2:21:33pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> kill -9 1026 > [2:21:34pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 > Password: > [2:21:42pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 > [2:21:44pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> sudo kill -9 1026 > [2:21:45pm] _pejvan_ ~ >> ps -U pejvan | grep 1026 > 1026 ?? Us 0:00.02 /Users/pejvan/devel/[...] That "U" means that the process (or more appropriately, one of the threads in the process) is blocked in the kernel in an "uninterruptible" state. It is unacceptable for the kernel/drivers to so mark a thread and then non make forward progress on it. Do you have any non-standard kernel extensions? What system call was thread making when it got into this state? You can find the latter by running the sample tool on the process (or attaching with gdb). In fact, this error doesn't come from my sources, it comes sometimes when I use cdrdao. I only have one non-standard kernel extension: the MSMouse kext. I'll try to run the sample tool on it next time i get this crash, and I'll report it to you. "Hopefully" this week-end. I really need to be able to kill this process, since it totally blocks the launching of any graphical app when it crashes, and there's no way for me to restart the computer in clean way: $ sudo shutdown now will fail and after two or three minutes, I get in the text mode output, with a message telling me that there have been some IPC failure, which leads me to the question: does the process crash and blocks some stuff? (which is totally wrong on a preemptive OS) does the IPC mechanism fail somewhere and make this process crash? (which is weirder) What you asked for [with that shutdown command] was not to reboot the machine, but instead to bring it back down to single-user-mode. Two things of note about that: 1. the un-interruptible process will still be blocked, more than likely, unless the shutdown killed off the facility that it was blocked waiting on (not likely). 2. Mac OS X/Darwin does not like being brought down to single-user mode after it was already running in multi-user-mode. Many of the key system services are implemented in user space. Bringing the system down to single-user-mode killed those off. The IPC messages you see are because you killed off the mach_init process that manages the namespace of public mach ports. But you also killed off the dynamic pager, which manages your swap files, and it doesn't like to get restarted either. You probably wanted "shutdown -r now" where the "-r" is to force a reboot. well, after being unsuccessfull with "sudo shutdown -r now" "sudo reboot" "kill -9 -1" and Apple Menu > Log Out, I tried the "sudo shutdown". Thanks for the info though, it's very intresting. I'll keep you updated anyway. Cheers, Pejvan _______________________________________________ darwin-kernel mailing list | darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darwin-kernel Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.

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