September 2004 - Darwin-kernel

Re: New list servers
by Dave Rehring 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com User-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.0.0.040405 On 9/12/04 11:41 AM, Chuq Von Rospach at chuq(a)apple.com wrote: > filtering on List-ID is what we've told people to do for years. Your > old setup would fail anyway any time someone Bcc:ed the list, if you > think about it. > > > On Sep 12, 2004, at 7:30 AM, Graham J Lee wrote: > >> I used to vgrep on the To: address in order to distinguish personal >> mail from list mail; now I need to have my MUA filter stuff. I've found using the "X-BeenThere" to work well [and even continued to work for most of the lists after the recent change, except for the ones that changes '...-development' to '...-dev']. Later, -- David Rehring Psychos do not explode when light hits VP of Research and Development them, no matter how crazy they are... Atimi Software, Inc. www.atimi.com And totally insane guy! _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Jonas Maebe 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On 12 sep 2004, at 18:02, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: Jonas _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… And third, it makes bounce processing more reliable, since we can better figure out who in fact that message was sent to (after it being forwarded six times and the headers stripped, and returned from an email address on a different continent than we sent it to). That will allow us to better parse off dead addresses, reducing the number of messages sent back and forth saying "he's dead! stop it!" "but you don't tell me who died! I can't!" Now this is a situation that is extremely familiar to me :) I also didn't like the plastering of my email address all over the message at first, but it's true that issue cannot be solved otherwise. And it /is/ extremely annoying to get several bounces daily without being able to do anything about them (and I only administer 4 mailing lists of which only two have regular, light traffic). Bonus points if the postmaster address of the bouncing domain bounces as well. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Chuq Von Rospach 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On Sep 12, 2004, at 8:48 AM, Graham J Lee wrote: Let me explain a couple of reasons. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… For instance, I send a mail to cocoa-dev(a)lists.apple.com, everyone else sees a message To: them and Cc: cocoa-dev. To make matters worse, the list manager compounds the deceit by writing "This email sent to leeg(a)teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk" at the bottom of the message. First, you obviously are a very competent person who's never forgotten which of the 23 email addresses you own (and all forward to a single place) you used to subscribe to a mailing list. For the rest of us mortal humans, we need some help here. Personalization is a huge benefit in terms of helping less expert users actually use these lists properly and cut their frustration (especially on unsubscribe) -- and reducing the amount of chasing around admins have to do to fix these situations. Second, by going to this kind of personalization, spam filters (especially stupid ones) will now see the mail as "not bulk" and they'll block less of it, so we should see less of the "why am I not getting all of my email from the list" issues where a user's site spam blocker is kicking in for reasons and not telling any one. And third, it makes bounce processing more reliable, since we can better figure out who in fact that message was sent to (after it being forwarded six times and the headers stripped, and returned from an email address on a different continent than we sent it to). That will allow us to better parse off dead addresses, reducing the number of messages sent back and forth saying "he's dead! stop it!" "but you don't tell me who died! I can't!" -- therefore cutting the overall bandwidth we waste a lot more than we'll add by adding the new features. That's not what I sent or intended; it's confusing and incorrect. No, what you intended was to send to a mailing list. After that, it's the mailing list's message, not yours. This is not a pass through, this is a re-distribution. It's a semantical difference that amy seem minor, but it's not. We're not just forwarding your message, we're accepting it for publication by the list server, and then posting it AS the list server for you. And as such, many different things go on than if it was simply a mail alias that redirects what it gets. So it may not be what you intended -- but it's what is appropriate for a mail list environment -- the list server (and its user population) have needs beyond simply getting your message, that allow them to properly interact with the server on a number of levels (from bounces to accessing their account and changing options). Much of the stuff added to the upgrade was to make that part easier and less confusing for users, not all of whom have perfect memory over what they did three years ago when they subscribed. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Chuq Von Rospach 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On Sep 12, 2004, at 8:48 AM, Graham J Lee wrote: _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… well, once you agree it's okay to do any kind of modification (as in subject tagging), the rest is just philosophical differences. But in reality, mail lists always modify messages. headers, footers, all sorts of things. What a waste of electrons :-). In the day of 1200 baud modems, yes. Fortunately, we aren't any more. The usage is swamped by just one small outbreak of virus zombies, no? OK, that can be worked around. However I'm not convinced that some arbitrary piece of software should be *modifying* headers that I write in an e-mail, except subject tagging. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Graham J Lee 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On 12 Sep 2004, at 16:41, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: What a waste of electrons :-). -- Graham Lee UNIX Systems Manager http://nextstep.sdf-eu.org _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… filtering on List-ID is what we've told people to do for years. Your old setup would fail anyway any time someone Bcc:ed the list, if you think about it. OK, that can be worked around. However I'm not convinced that some arbitrary piece of software should be *modifying* headers that I write in an e-mail, except subject tagging. For instance, I send a mail to cocoa-dev(a)lists.apple.com, everyone else sees a message To: them and Cc: cocoa-dev. To make matters worse, the list manager compounds the deceit by writing "This email sent to leeg(a)teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk" at the bottom of the message. That's not what I sent or intended; it's confusing and incorrect. Especially the *way* in which the headers are modified, to whit: Cc: "Technical discussion list for general Darwin software development. This does not include Carbon, Cocoa, or Darwin Streaming Server." <darwin-dev(a)lists.apple.com> This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Chuq Von Rospach 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On Sep 12, 2004, at 7:30 AM, Graham J Lee wrote: _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… filtering on List-ID is what we've told people to do for years. Your old setup would fail anyway any time someone Bcc:ed the list, if you think about it. I used to vgrep on the To: address in order to distinguish personal mail from list mail; now I need to have my MUA filter stuff. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Chuq Von Rospach 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On Sep 12, 2004, at 6:54 AM, Robert Watson wrote: _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… you'll need to go turn on NOMAIL again in your user options. That was something we couldn't transfer from server to server. For one thing, it appears to have broken post-only subscriptions, since my posting address now appears to be getting mail from every Darwin mailing list. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Chuq Von Rospach 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On Sep 12, 2004, at 3:17 AM, Markus Hitter wrote: They work! Congrats to the list admin team. Bitte. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Markus Hitter 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Am 12.09.2004 um 16:56 schrieb Wade Tregaskis: I'm using Mail.app, too, and it works excellent. To set up a mail rule, 1) view a message coming from the list, 2) hit cmd-shift-H to view message headers, 3) look up the line beginning with "List-Id", 4) copy the mail address in this line to the clipboard 5) set up a rule a la "List-Id contains darwin-kernel.lists.apple.com". List-Id is even one of the headers the rule editor suggests. Cheers, Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… For one thing, it appears to have broken post-only subscriptions, since my posting address now appears to be getting mail from every Darwin mailing list. One irritation is that the To: field now contains the subscriber address (e.g. I pick up messages "To: leeg(a)teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk") instead of the list's address (darwin-kernel). I used to vgrep on the To: address in order to distinguish personal mail from list mail; now I need to have my MUA filter stuff. Not a great deal but irritating nonetheless. I'll add my voice to this complaint, too. I use Mail, who's rules system is both weak and buggy, ... Works always, distinguishes mails going to the list from their duplicate sent directly to you and list software developers promised to never change the List Id header due to software upgrades. If you prefer grepping through your mailbox, I can't see where "List-Id:" has more potential pitfalls than "To:" This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: New list servers
by Wade Tregaskis 12 Sep '04

12 Sep '04

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… For one thing, it appears to have broken post-only subscriptions, since my posting address now appears to be getting mail from every Darwin mailing list. One irritation is that the To: field now contains the subscriber address (e.g. I pick up messages "To: leeg(a)teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk") instead of the list's address (darwin-kernel). I used to vgrep on the To: address in order to distinguish personal mail from list mail; now I need to have my MUA filter stuff. Not a great deal but irritating nonetheless. I'll add my voice to this complaint, too. I use Mail, who's rules system is both weak and buggy, making it very difficult to separate list email from personal email like I did under the old system (heck, the old system was just a rule which highlighted mail addressed to me). I wouldn't care either way how it was done, since there's theoretical advantages to both, but that they would adopt a system which disagrees strongly with their own email client is a bit baffling. Wade Tregaskis (aim & yahoo: wadetregaskis, icq: 40056898, msn & email: wjtregaskis(a)students.latrobe.edu.au, jabber: wadetregaskis(a)jabber.org) -- Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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