May 2006 - Darwin-kernel - lists.apple.com

Re: newer darwin version than with OSX 10.4.6?
by Justin C. Walker 18 May '06

18 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On May 17, 2006, at 06:17 , thomasoft wrote: I have no idea what you mean here. Most of Mac OS X is *not* open source. Regards, Justin [*] Under "normal usage", so no kernel-intensive operations. -- Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon at Large Institute for the Absorption of Federal Funds ----------- I'm beginning to like the cut of his jibberish. ----------- _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… where can the newest code of darwin for ppc be found? Either on Apple's Darwin Developer site (<http:// developer.apple.com>) or on the Open Darwin site (<http:// www.opendarwin.org>). does a website exist? or do all coders only send the sourcecode back to apple? and apple will then release newer versions? i'm asking because i'm not satisfied with the speed of osx...i think it's the mach kernel which is quite slow...do newer, i.e faster versions optimized for example for the g5 exist? Well, look at it this way: Apple ships one version of Mac OS X that works on all systems (well, currently, per CPU architecture). The Darwin source represents a small chunk of the system, measured by lines of code or by bytes used on-disk. Even if you shrunk the the Mach kernel to size zero and decreased the kernel cycles needed to execute whatever is asked of it to zero, this would probably account for a 5-10% speedup[*]. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Darwin not open source anymore?????
by Agent M 18 May '06

18 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com -M On May 17, 2006, at 5:08 PM, Ulrik Guenther wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Greetings, ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ AgentM agentm(a)themactionfaction.com ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This isn't the first time Apple has tried such a gimmick. Recall the kernel hack that was supposed to prevent iTunes from being debugged to determine how DRM-AAC tracks are played. At least that was open-source. My guess is that there are internal battles within Apple on how to handle the delicate "piracy" issues in relation to open source and open source software in general, so there is no coherent Apple viewpoint on the issue anyway. It is a very important issue where most companies just pick one of the extremes so it will be interesting to see how Apple grows with its decisions. We just have to wait to see what the man in the black turtleneck has to say [which is, of course, frustrating too]. Security by obscurity. Never thought that Apple would adapt this concept. Unfortunetely, now, this is for real. I really hope that there will be something done against this. Many people spent their time in bringing Darwin forward. Now Apple took it and went away. Great. Just dig a bit into the source trees at opendarwin.org or at developer.apple.com, you'll see a significant difference between x86 and ppc. It just plain sucks. Sorry for the hard words. ulrik This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: software firewall wishlist (pf, but see systrace, which was a good idea, too)
by Christopher D. Lewis 17 May '06

17 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XAokbvnkkpgeQkf3KlcRndTRMruZ1fDIV2ZPLrCVMSFiM7gXAZbWehDo6iRndIvo; h=Received:Mime-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From:Subject:Date:To:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; On May 17, 2006, at 3:48 PM, Terry Lambert wrote: Best regards, Chris _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This is not actually true. There are a number of approaches to dealing with this, but taking over a single entry point rather than muxing it is definitely *not* the way to play nice with other software. Whatever approach you use *must* be amenable to being daisy-chained. The concern about leaving intact all the tools from other kits (altq, NAT, etc.) is that if not replaced, software that doesn't know about the pf-related system and how to interact with it will merely bollux up the system rather than experience harmless but informative failure (ie, the binaries that drive ipfw aren't there to be used, rather than that they or a duplicate are there and pretend to do the right thing but likely don't because of differences between the underlying system and the userland tools by which they are driven and from which one receives reports). The idea behind the pf system is to give more power (per-connection priority and not just per packet; address translation in the same place as the filtering so that managing connections involving translated IP addresses and redirections to different interfaces don't do unexpected things; faster handling of complex rule sets; genuine statefulness), and leaving alternate "solutions" for these things risks enabling multiple inconsistent methods of skinning various in-kernel cats, after the cat-breeder has gone to, say, leapords. I can imagine why one might want to include wrappers for folks who use tools that expect old FreeBSD parts to be there ... but there won't be a 1:1 relation between what the pf system does and what can be revealed by a old-compatible-lookalike wrapper. Where confusion is the likely result of maintaining some semblance of backward compatibility with prior tools, isn't clear and immediate failure a better option? Daisy-chaining works great with pf, just ... daisy-chaining a system involving pf with tools that think they're talking to ipf, ipfw, iptables, or the like is surely a road to madness, no? Assuming this hasn't been rendered moot by source unavailability on Apple's future platforms, is there an appropriate place to inquire whether efforts to make security and administration improvements (eg: pf, systrace) will be viewed favorably or will be rejected out of hand and thus should not attract effort? This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Darwin not open source anymore?????
by Jeremy Bush 17 May '06

17 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com User-agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 James Reynolds wrote: > At 2:22 PM -0700 5/17/06, Matt Ginzton wrote: >>> For x86 it is. If you take a look at >>> >>> http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.6.x86/ >>> >>> vs. >>> >>> http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.6.ppc/ >>> >>> you will see a big difference. >>> >> Is there an official story behind this? I noticed when trying to use >> the xnu source to debug, say, some signal handling problems, that the >> i386 xnu code was demonstrably very different from what's actually in >> OS X 10.4.6 for x86. >> >> That MacWorld story is light on details, but seems to be mostly >> talking about pirates and "Don't Steal Mac OS X.kext". >> >> Has there been an official announcement that the Darwin and xnu source >> for x86 isn't intended to reflect OS X, or that it won't in the future? >> >> Matt > > Well, that article definitely implies an official announcement. That is > what I thought it meant. If there is no official announcement Apple > better step up and give one because right now I'm hearing whispers on my > campus from the Unix type folks (computer science and engineering types) > that this is a serious blow and that they are going to have to quit > using OS X if it isn't open source anymore. > > In other words, official announcement or not, people are reading into > that article that it is official. > There is still i386 references in the ppc code. Perhaps it might compile for i386... Jeremy Bush Image Management LLC http://www.imagemanagement.ws -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQFEa5e57UWHlBx6mBkRAny7AKCRKRCHkvMvORKtvetcz0zipqGdmwCgiEXk 7zItmzjrn2va2q7Y2N8PxKc= =MSti -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- begin:vcard fn:Jeremy Bush n:Bush;Jeremy org:Image Management LLC adr;dom:Suite 200;;610 Main St;Racine;Wi;53403 email;internet:jeremy@imagemanagement.ws title:Web Master tel;work:262-898-9137 tel;fax:262-898-9138 url:http://www.imagemanagement.ws version:2.1 end:vcard _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Darwin not open source anymore?????
by James Reynolds 17 May '06

17 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com For x86 it is. If you take a look at http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.6.x86/ vs. http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.6.ppc/ you will see a big difference. -- James Reynolds http://james.magnusviri.com james(a)magnusviri.com - james(a)scl.utah.edu _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… At 2:22 PM -0700 5/17/06, Matt Ginzton wrote: Is there an official story behind this? I noticed when trying to use the xnu source to debug, say, some signal handling problems, that the i386 xnu code was demonstrably very different from what's actually in OS X 10.4.6 for x86. That MacWorld story is light on details, but seems to be mostly talking about pirates and "Don't Steal Mac OS X.kext". Has there been an official announcement that the Darwin and xnu source for x86 isn't intended to reflect OS X, or that it won't in the future? Matt Well, that article definitely implies an official announcement. That is what I thought it meant. If there is no official announcement Apple better step up and give one because right now I'm hearing whispers on my campus from the Unix type folks (computer science and engineering types) that this is a serious blow and that they are going to have to quit using OS X if it isn't open source anymore. In other words, official announcement or not, people are reading into that article that it is official. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Darwin not open source anymore?????
by Matt Ginzton 17 May '06

17 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com User-agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) For x86 it is. If you take a look at http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.6.x86/ vs. http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.6.ppc/ Matt _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… you will see a big difference. Is there an official story behind this? I noticed when trying to use the xnu source to debug, say, some signal handling problems, that the i386 xnu code was demonstrably very different from what's actually in OS X 10.4.6 for x86. That MacWorld story is light on details, but seems to be mostly talking about pirates and "Don't Steal Mac OS X.kext". Has there been an official announcement that the Darwin and xnu source for x86 isn't intended to reflect OS X, or that it won't in the future? This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Darwin not open source anymore?????
by Ulrik Guenther 17 May '06

17 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Greetings, ulrik -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEa5DMy06DkvPH780RAonzAJ9/H4qbs6KjYVMc6u3mdU+nwW3lRgCfYVct qfwjsc8uRKLsJUVVhKNRkLE= =ZkLQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… Security by obscurity. Never thought that Apple would adapt this concept. Unfortunetely, now, this is for real. I really hope that there will be something done against this. Many people spent their time in bringing Darwin forward. Now Apple took it and went away. Great. Just dig a bit into the source trees at opendarwin.org or at developer.apple.com, you'll see a significant difference between x86 and ppc. It just plain sucks. Sorry for the hard words. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Darwin not open source anymore?????
by Jeremy Bush 17 May '06

17 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com User-agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 James Reynolds wrote: > http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14663 > > Is this for real? > > James Reynolds For x86 it is. If you take a look at http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.6.x86/ vs. http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4.6.ppc/ you will see a big difference. Jeremy Bush Image Management LLC http://www.imagemanagement.ws -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQFEa49H7UWHlBx6mBkRAvuyAJ4y9PZmS4NUQU79x/eiRIrM2KzoxgCePusy GW+sChbGf9whJmhWlrQa8EI= =XBDw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- begin:vcard fn:Jeremy Bush n:Bush;Jeremy org:Image Management LLC adr;dom:Suite 200;;610 Main St;Racine;Wi;53403 email;internet:jeremy@imagemanagement.ws title:Web Master tel;work:262-898-9137 tel;fax:262-898-9138 url:http://www.imagemanagement.ws version:2.1 end:vcard _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Darwin not open source anymore?????
by James Reynolds 17 May '06

17 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=14663 Is this for real? -- James Reynolds http://james.magnusviri.com james(a)magnusviri.com - james(a)scl.utah.edu _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: software firewall wishlist (pf, but see systrace, which was a good idea, too)
by Terry Lambert 17 May '06

17 May '06

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On May 17, 2006, at 11:43 AM, Christopher D. Lewis wrote: Hi, I wish pf or ipfilter be ported to darwin so we will have choices for better firewalls (ipfw, pf, ipf) You might want to try "man ipfw"; you are running Tiger, right? 8-). -- Terry On Apr 3, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Terry Lambert wrote: On Apr 1, 2006, at 12:52 AM, Jett Tayer wrote: OT: ipfilter now runs on linux For pf and ipfilter, either one could be ported as an NKE (Network Kernel Extension) pretty trivially, and Apple provides NKE sample code already. To get all the things the pf tools support (including firewall failover, load balancing, packet prioritization, per-user port access privileges, network address translation, and the like) there's a host of userland stuff that'd need porting (and the .kext would need to create pf's virtual devices, so userland apps could interact with the firewall as the developers intended). This is all pretty straight-forward. Allocation of BSD-style pseudo- devices without intermediation by IOKit is both possible, and relatively easy to accomplish - there are a number of drivers that can be used as an example which call cdevsw_add() to add devices like this. As long as you use a larger negative number (e.g. "-15"), then it means "give me a cdevsw entry whose major number is at least the absolute value of the first argument to cdevsw_add(), and insert my device structure which is supplied as the second argument". The negative number is required to block out space for legacy implementations that want specific device numbers (no device should *require* a specific major number). (Note that pf does both NAT and packet filtering, so the pf port would involve more than the firewall's .kext and userland, it would involve removing the stuff that collides with pf's other functions.) This is not actually true. There are a number of approaches to dealing with this, but taking over a single entry point rather than muxing it is definitely *not* the way to play nice with other software. Whatever approach you use *must* be amenable to being daisy- chained. PS: You may want to limit yourself to a small set of questions per email that can safely be answered in isolation. _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0