March 2007 - Darwin-kernel - lists.apple.com

Re: Equivalent of Linux kmap on Mac OS
by Michael Smith 09 Mar '07

09 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On Mar 7, 2007, at 2:31 PM, Bhavesh Davda wrote: Sure sounds like I can 1. IOMemoryDescriptor::initWithAddress(userAddr,..., kernel_task) to map the user address into the kernel map, and 2. prepare() to wire the address down. Whoa, hold it right there. Otherwise the deal's off. No more helping. = Mike _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… Before we help you any more, I want a promise out of you. This chunk of memory is *small*, right? A couple of pages at most, right? And you set this up once and then keep using it for a long time, right? The kernel is *not* in the business of handing out chunks of its virtual address space to arbitrary processes. As Terry suggests, you are better off allocating the space in the kernel, and then vending mappings of that space to user tasks as they come and go. I'm still curious as to why you think you want to share memory like this; there are better ways to do most of the common things that I can think of. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Network Interface for a Given Destination Address
by Jones Curtis 09 Mar '07

09 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:mime-version:to:message-id:content-type:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=R6vD47a8P2sruZQymGcrEN6M/MXUtgYKWEgCa3mMoaF0OnMtdw1KNKgeGU2aPnwf/XELqZWEH/g3KQhFIT5ylkKWRACWnPHX1QG5XcUSZatS5iwsxetOlKGuxbVA9FqpXpSvEcVbV+oybU4WLYG1FE6rbXBcdGuE0Q551TbG5JU= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:mime-version:to:message-id:content-type:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=eS4M79OJHTIDx6NQC1hdf+MlzziEIfb1n5ZG0pxPA51EjXw0vm/ReJhGmE9JlgMFx/9Pz9goNR8lvv+3C7guHAtkMZzKTv+tdbMqaaIOvyzCIUlFL1aHFfJIzTFOLC2krKjfPJlrieeTAZa/VzUPr75WKnh1SN5OXN/nWePVpgo= Thanks. -- Curtis Jones curtis.jones(a)gmail.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com I'm trying to determine the ethernet interface (en0, en1, etc.) that will be used for a given destination ip address. I've tried using ifaddr_withdstaddr() and ifaddr_withnet() and I can get the correct result for addresses that are local to the machine and for those that are on the same subnet as one of the ethernet interfaces for the machine. So, that's part of the solution, but not all of it. I looked at ifaddr_findbestforaddr(), thinking that it might return NULL if that the given interface wasn't useful for that address, but if I'm reading the source code for ifaof_ifpforaddr() correctly, it doesn't touch the routing tables and it simply returns the first address entry if none of them match. So, I'm guessing I need to specifically find the interface for the default route if _withdstaddr() / _withnet() don't help. Is this the correct approach? And how would I go about doing that? smime.p7s

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Re: Finding the device in question
by Quinn 08 Mar '07

08 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com <http://lists.apple.com/bluetooth-dev> S+E -- Quinn "The Eskimo!" <http://www.apple.com/developer/> Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… At 20:34 +0100 7/3/07, Nils Holland wrote: Let's assume I have the following line in my system.log file on an Intel-Mac running MacOS X 10.4.8: | Mar 7 08:59:21 Nils-Hollands-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: [CompletePowerStateChange] Failed to resetDevice 00000010 In that case, how do I actually find out which device is being referred to here (00000010)? The message is being printed by the IOBluetoothHCIController class. I don't know enough about this part of the system to offer any clues as to what might be causing it. AFAICT the Bluetooth stack isn't part of the Darwin open source. You might want post your question to the Bluetooth mailing list: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Equivalent of Linux kmap on Mac OS
by Anton Altaparmakov 08 Mar '07

08 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Oops. The nice comments are not in Tiger. )-: Sorry. Best regards, Anton -- Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @) Unix Support, Computing Service, University of Cambridge, CB2 3QH, UK Linux NTFS maintainer, http://www.linux-ntfs.org/ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… On 8 Mar 2007, at 00:26, Terry Lambert wrote: On Mar 7, 2007, at 6:29 AM, Anton Altaparmakov wrote: On 7 Mar 2007, at 09:20, Nikita Danilov wrote: 07/03/2007 13:36 +0000, Anton Altaparmakov: - Download the xnu sources from http://www.opensource.apple.com/ darwinsource/ and look in bsd/kern/ubc_subr.c. It has very good comments above most of the function (kind of Kernel doc style like in Linux but not quite). A couple of years ago, I used to read through osfmk/vm/ a lot, trying to understand UPL interface, hopefully it got better comments (read: any) since then. :-) I should note that I am looking at xnu trunk in Apple internal svn, i.e. what will be in Leopard when it is released. /me checks out the current Tiger 10.4.8 xnu tag (xnu-792.14.14) and looks at bsd/kern/ubc_subr.c(). I wonder if it would be allowed to cut the comments out of the current ubc_subr.c and make them public as a .txt file... /me writes a Sticky to remind me to ask... I wrote all those comments, plus commented a bunch of stuff elsewhere, any time I happened to make what I thought were extensive enough code changes in a given kernel source file. I also documented return codes for most functions in the underlying implementations of major POSIX subsystems in a bunch of other places, where the return codes could be ambiguous according to the standard, and tried to make it clear where/what function the error codes (eventually) came from. 8-). I know that the UBC comments were sent to at least one external person who was working on a publication, so it can't hurt to ask... I asked and was told "no". Feel free to ask yourself if you feel you can get a "yes". (-: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Equivalent of Linux kmap on Mac OS
by Terry Lambert 08 Mar '07

08 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Oops. The nice comments are not in Tiger. )-: Sorry. -- Terry _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… On Mar 7, 2007, at 6:29 AM, Anton Altaparmakov wrote: On 7 Mar 2007, at 09:20, Nikita Danilov wrote: 07/03/2007 13:36 +0000, Anton Altaparmakov: - Download the xnu sources from http://www.opensource.apple.com/ darwinsource/ and look in bsd/kern/ubc_subr.c. It has very good comments above most of the function (kind of Kernel doc style like in Linux but not quite). A couple of years ago, I used to read through osfmk/vm/ a lot, trying to understand UPL interface, hopefully it got better comments (read: any) since then. :-) I should note that I am looking at xnu trunk in Apple internal svn, i.e. what will be in Leopard when it is released. /me checks out the current Tiger 10.4.8 xnu tag (xnu-792.14.14) and looks at bsd/kern/ubc_subr.c(). I wonder if it would be allowed to cut the comments out of the current ubc_subr.c and make them public as a .txt file... /me writes a Sticky to remind me to ask... I wrote all those comments, plus commented a bunch of stuff elsewhere, any time I happened to make what I thought were extensive enough code changes in a given kernel source file. I also documented return codes for most functions in the underlying implementations of major POSIX subsystems in a bunch of other places, where the return codes could be ambiguous according to the standard, and tried to make it clear where/ what function the error codes (eventually) came from. 8-). I know that the UBC comments were sent to at least one external person who was working on a publication, so it can't hurt to ask... This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Equivalent of Linux kmap on Mac OS
by Terry Lambert 08 Mar '07

08 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Sorry for not providing more context. Yes, what I'm looking for is something that has memory semantics (i.e. I don't need to call map/unmap functions ever time I want to access this piece of memory), where the memory is allocated in a user space task, but should be accessible without these map/unmap calls like "global" memory within a KEXT, for all tasks running the KEXT code as part of a synchronous system call, and also for all kernel threads running the KEXT code as some sort of a "bottom-half". I understand that in the context of the userspace task that allocates and owns the memory, the kernel (KEXT) doesn't need any special mapping code to access the tasks userspace memory. I'm also not looking for the bounce buffer element of Linux's kmap. All I would like is a way to, through non-kernel-private APIs, be able to map the userspace memory into the kernel map, so that all tasks can access it in KEXT code. -- Terry _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… On Mar 7, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Bhavesh Davda wrote: You really want the device to own the memory, and then map it into the user space process(es). If you do it the other way, and the user space process restarts, you are going to have a really hard time replacing the mapping in kernel space (because it might be in use, and you just don't know) with a new one from your process address space for the replacement process. For example, if you were trying to implement a firewall with a user interface component in a network extension, and mapped memory in from a user space control process to communicate rules and status information to the user space process, and potentially to communicate information back to the kernel after popping up a dialog that said something like "Application foo is attempting to access the Internet; Cancel or Allow?". If that user space process ended up dying it'd take all your current rules state and historical status information with it; but you'd still have a reference to the mapping to the vm region map in kernel space; until that reference goes away, your mapping in kernel space would stay around (it's there because you put it there, and it stay around because it still has a non-zero reference count. Now you start up a replacement control process; how do you transfer the existing data into the new process? How do you replace the mapping in kernel space now that the network extension is already loaded, and you have active threads looking in the memory region that came from the original process? You are much better off having the kernel own the memory, and mapping it into the user space process, instead of trying to go the other way around. A minimal recovery strategy would require you to map the vm region into the address space of the new control process, and if you are going to do that anyway, then you might as well do that in the first place, and make things a lot simpler for yourself. This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Equivalent of Linux kmap on Mac OS
by Godfrey van der Linden 07 Mar '07

07 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Godfrey On 08/03/2007, at 09:31 , Bhavesh Davda wrote: Hi Rob, Sure sounds like I can 1. IOMemoryDescriptor::initWithAddress(userAddr,..., kernel_task) to map the user address into the kernel map, and 2. prepare() to wire the address down. Have I got that right? But then, what's the kernel virtual address I can use from other tasks running in the KEXT to access this kernel mapped address? Thanks! - Bhavesh This sounds like a perfect use of an I/O Kit IOMemoryDescriptor. Have you looked at this and would it be an option for you? -Rob -- Rob McKeever, rmckeever(a)apple.com Developer Technical Support, CoreOS/Hardware Apple Computer On Mar 7, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Bhavesh Davda wrote: -- Bhavesh P. Davda _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/gvdl%40mac.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… Remember that in MacOSX manipulating the kernel address map is slooooooowwwww. Are you sure you need to do this at all. The memory descriptor readBytes/writeBytes routines may be more efficient solution. I wouldn't recommend map()ing on every I/O, however a couple at device initialisation time is probably OK, and a good way to share buffers between user land and the kernel. On 3/7/07, Rob McKeever <rmckeever(a)apple.com> wrote: > Sorry for not providing more context. > > Yes, what I'm looking for is something that has memory semantics (i.e. > I don't need to call map/unmap functions ever time I want to access > this piece of memory), where the memory is allocated in a user space > task, but should be accessible without these map/unmap calls like > "global" memory within a KEXT, for all tasks running the KEXT code as > part of a synchronous system call, and also for all kernel threads > running the KEXT code as some sort of a "bottom-half". > > I understand that in the context of the userspace task that allocates > and owns the memory, the kernel (KEXT) doesn't need any special > mapping code to access the tasks userspace memory. > > I'm also not looking for the bounce buffer element of Linux's kmap. > All I would like is a way to, through non-kernel-private APIs, be able > to map the userspace memory into the kernel map, so that all tasks can > access it in KEXT code. > > Hopefully this makes the intent more clear. > > Thank you! > > - Bhavesh > > > On 3/7/07, Michael Smith <drivers(a)mu.org> wrote: >> >> On Mar 7, 2007, at 3:45 AM, Anton Altaparmakov wrote: >> >> > If you are not working with a file system then I would suggest >> > checking out what ubc_upl_map() does and following it up that way >> > to figure out what to do analogously. >> >> That's probably not a good suggestion; the UBC implementation does >> not use KPI. If the page is sourced from an address space (as I >> inferred from the Bhavesh's original request) then there's no need to >> construct the UPL (it will happen automagically if the page has to be >> faulted in). >> >> What this boils down to, again, is that without more information on >> what Bhavesh actually wants to do (i.e. not "there is this call in >> Linux"), we're not really able to help him very much. 8) >> >> = Mike >> >> > > > -- > Bhavesh P. Davda > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/rmckeever% > 40apple.com > > This email sent to rmckeever(a)apple.com This email sent to gvdl(a)mac.com This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Equivalent of Linux kmap on Mac OS
by Shawn Erickson 07 Mar '07

07 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EhXJr6Ar8lObdG4G3oABBnhshS4tBL+lSlEyXsbjgovZGclxJ8wH4BHCahDWbBrnpeodxP80voqtj/Z39roJnIejaH3gllYCGY0u3VMSLrenX4QyAZXtCriyXhIv6SpJyGGg00acuxSvQZdaUzfzyHyVHD3kjERKmtwhqmyrGJg= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=br22Agf2dyblib6ahVpPtGLpEdeJJODcsq39/VuzD5ceHEthQEm8DN+oWQ4bmbqBPsxrxK8fS8OV6bYWxYbslxScUcjl9ksW5lAyoJw6v5dvXayfIfnu7KtVBloH3APKEm1pw3d+STxMJiD7ok6NhIakZ3Qe0LyDYVDghGEzUcQ= Hi Rob, Sure sounds like I can 1. IOMemoryDescriptor::initWithAddress(userAddr,..., kernel_task) to map the user address into the kernel map, and 2. prepare() to wire the address down. Have I got that right? But then, what's the kernel virtual address I can use from other tasks running in the KEXT to access this kernel mapped address? ... create myMemoryDescriptor with something ... ... IOMemoryMap* map = myMemoryDescriptor->map(); IOVirtualAddress address = map->getVirtualAddress(); ... map->release(); // when you no longer need the mapping -Shawn _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… On 3/7/07, Bhavesh Davda <bhavesh.davda(a)gmail.com> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Equivalent of Linux kmap on Mac OS
by Bhavesh Davda 07 Mar '07

07 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rwB5bvNZ4/GuZqz+tWS4LM6rSpPqwdCJGP3VohZwc7bIsp/DuvGyPhtUUNru1BGgX3UphyqaVROTzlwYlMppnqiBabWQhG2YsAnHMPQSmlRWt18oAcDM9/1RRsn6xgr645d6Q98vteZCRiQAhoe2qOfEn19fxWN5L1cQSek1hhY= Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dcXHO7/dCUjmCIFXIyJ1iSuC5XoOQteurCJP+eTOSdZR0Nc7XCJu4a+ldVFnc772zLtECSnjrUBEkgOVGY0ljZw/ZHC8A9sy4scMpDB/F+VcJb2YYkXAxzyylkTKc2m9Qc2/AF4cYmLWcZV2uImjN6CSlxsUWoJLhxy+3sL6I/k= Hi Rob, Sure sounds like I can 1. IOMemoryDescriptor::initWithAddress(userAddr,..., kernel_task) to map the user address into the kernel map, and 2. prepare() to wire the address down. Have I got that right? But then, what's the kernel virtual address I can use from other tasks running in the KEXT to access this kernel mapped address? Thanks! - Bhavesh This sounds like a perfect use of an I/O Kit IOMemoryDescriptor. Have you looked at this and would it be an option for you? -Rob -- Rob McKeever, rmckeever(a)apple.com Developer Technical Support, CoreOS/Hardware Apple Computer On Mar 7, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Bhavesh Davda wrote: > Sorry for not providing more context. > > Yes, what I'm looking for is something that has memory semantics (i.e. > I don't need to call map/unmap functions ever time I want to access > this piece of memory), where the memory is allocated in a user space > task, but should be accessible without these map/unmap calls like > "global" memory within a KEXT, for all tasks running the KEXT code as > part of a synchronous system call, and also for all kernel threads > running the KEXT code as some sort of a "bottom-half". > > I understand that in the context of the userspace task that allocates > and owns the memory, the kernel (KEXT) doesn't need any special > mapping code to access the tasks userspace memory. > > I'm also not looking for the bounce buffer element of Linux's kmap. > All I would like is a way to, through non-kernel-private APIs, be able > to map the userspace memory into the kernel map, so that all tasks can > access it in KEXT code. > > Hopefully this makes the intent more clear. > > Thank you! > > - Bhavesh > > > On 3/7/07, Michael Smith <drivers(a)mu.org> wrote: >> >> On Mar 7, 2007, at 3:45 AM, Anton Altaparmakov wrote: >> >> > If you are not working with a file system then I would suggest >> > checking out what ubc_upl_map() does and following it up that way >> > to figure out what to do analogously. >> >> That's probably not a good suggestion; the UBC implementation does >> not use KPI. If the page is sourced from an address space (as I >> inferred from the Bhavesh's original request) then there's no need to >> construct the UPL (it will happen automagically if the page has to be >> faulted in). >> >> What this boils down to, again, is that without more information on >> what Bhavesh actually wants to do (i.e. not "there is this call in >> Linux"), we're not really able to help him very much. 8) >> >> = Mike >> >> > > > -- > Bhavesh P. Davda > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/rmckeever% > 40apple.com > > This email sent to rmckeever(a)apple.com -- Bhavesh P. Davda _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… On 3/7/07, Rob McKeever <rmckeever(a)apple.com> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Equivalent of Linux kmap on Mac OS
by Anton Altaparmakov 07 Mar '07

07 Mar '07

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com On 7 Mar 2007, at 17:54, Bhavesh Davda wrote: Sorry for not providing more context. Yes, what I'm looking for is something that has memory semantics (i.e. I don't need to call map/unmap functions ever time I want to access this piece of memory), where the memory is allocated in a user space task, but should be accessible without these map/unmap calls like "global" memory within a KEXT, for all tasks running the KEXT code as part of a synchronous system call, and also for all kernel threads running the KEXT code as some sort of a "bottom-half". I understand that in the context of the userspace task that allocates and owns the memory, the kernel (KEXT) doesn't need any special mapping code to access the tasks userspace memory. I'm also not looking for the bounce buffer element of Linux's kmap. All I would like is a way to, through non-kernel-private APIs, be able to map the userspace memory into the kernel map, so that all tasks can access it in KEXT code. Best regards, Anton Thank you! - Bhavesh On Mar 7, 2007, at 3:45 AM, Anton Altaparmakov wrote: > If you are not working with a file system then I would suggest > checking out what ubc_upl_map() does and following it up that way > to figure out what to do analogously. That's probably not a good suggestion; the UBC implementation does not use KPI. If the page is sourced from an address space (as I inferred from the Bhavesh's original request) then there's no need to construct the UPL (it will happen automagically if the page has to be faulted in). What this boils down to, again, is that without more information on what Bhavesh actually wants to do (i.e. not "there is this call in Linux"), we're not really able to help him very much. 8) = Mike -- Bhavesh P. Davda Best regards, Anton -- Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @) Unix Support, Computing Service, University of Cambridge, CB2 3QH, UK Linux NTFS maintainer, http://www.linux-ntfs.org/ _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Darwin-kernel mailing list (Darwin-kernel(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/darwin-kernel/site_archiver%40lists.… Hopefully this makes the intent more clear. Yes perfectly clear. In that case forget everything that I said and listen to what Mike and Terry have to say. (-: On 3/7/07, Michael Smith <drivers(a)mu.org> wrote: This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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