April 2017 - Installer-dev - lists.apple.com

Re: Output to Terminal
by Lora Lozano 20 Apr '17

20 Apr '17

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com Thank you again for your help, Stephane. One other issue is that the message gets broadcasted to all terminal windows. I’ll take a look at the code as you suggested. Thanks! > On Apr 19, 2017, at 3:04 PM, Stephane Sudre <dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > blanklikes -> blank lines > > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:03 AM, Stephane Sudre <dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> If this is the only issue with what you're trying to achieve, don't >> forget that wall(1) is part of Darwin, so you can get the source code >> and modify it: >> >> https://opensource.apple.com/tarballs/remote_cmds/remote_cmds-54.50.1.tar.gz >> >> If you force the undocumented nobanner option and remove the blanklikes by: >> >> 1. changing line 86 to int nobanner=1; >> 2. commenting lines 283 and 350. >> >> You can add your modified wall executable to your package resources and use it. >> >> e.g. >> >> macpro:~ stephane$ sudo echo "Compacting trash..." | >> /Users/stephane/Library/Developer/Xcode/DerivedData/wall-e-btvgbaqrikqzcqavrorrfufgpfiw/Build/Products/Debug/wall-e >> Compacting trash... >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Lora Lozano <lora_lozano(a)filemaker.com> wrote: >>> Thank you for your suggestion, Stephane. It definitely does what I want it to do, but since it also displays the broadcast text, I don’t think it’s a solution I can use. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Lora >>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2017, at 3:43 AM, Stephane Sudre <dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Maybe not a good suggestion (but at least it does output something to >>>> the terminal(s)): >>>> >>>> #!/bin/sh >>>> >>>> /bin/echo "This is an installation announcement." | /usr/bin/wall >>>> >>>> exit 0 >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Lora Lozano <lora_lozano(a)filemaker.com> wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I have a postinstall script in my package. I’d like for it to echo something to the terminal if the user runs >>>>> >>>>> sudo installer -pkg <pathToPkg> -target / >>>>> >>>>> I see that the echo command in my postinstall script outputs to /var/log/install.log, and I can have it echo to a separate file also by using >>>>> >>>>> 2>&1 | tee -a "$logFile” >>>>> >>>>> However, can I output it to Terminal? >>>>> >>>>> Also, is there a way to pass a custom parameter to the installer command to be used by the postinstall script? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advanced. >>>>> >>>>> -Lora >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>>>> Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>>>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/dev.iceberg%40gmail.c… >>>>> >>>>> This email sent to dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html > > > > -- > Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Output to Terminal
by Stephane Sudre 19 Apr '17

19 Apr '17

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CFIQ70R8UUW3p0DtFP1ETnYL7AMq5hGTaZ1Xg71FDt8=; b=MHpWpeY3WpMoEkAtoyuAVY0ko2M+ahhBxRnkWr/I9aqd/Hh/mM6+MGvbAKO3OhL1QO U1YtBzqpygxjILtYr1ouPhjInp8ClpbPUojPk1uz7c1VgTaBSTbAJL/Lf2ES+9gNEPtE BQZzNumaOvTLB93soF0nuVUnVPAl6KIL0JHNT2qWt1WmKtMDUqXLYTKPmG6U2V98JPNp a2bCXQt4eGf2ioUWQhCYTymowMCG9ReT8eWI/WEnFygSrLP9DjrL4SXx2yj0/w55Ta1J N+woKFcSlB8CyuunAfJ5gmvlWRZrNFQF3dRtM8zt3bpD5xK+rgOC4GLYz7ozjvCjAYpq nEZw== blanklikes -> blank lines On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:03 AM, Stephane Sudre <dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com> wrote: > If this is the only issue with what you're trying to achieve, don't > forget that wall(1) is part of Darwin, so you can get the source code > and modify it: > > https://opensource.apple.com/tarballs/remote_cmds/remote_cmds-54.50.1.tar.gz > > If you force the undocumented nobanner option and remove the blanklikes by: > > 1. changing line 86 to int nobanner=1; > 2. commenting lines 283 and 350. > > You can add your modified wall executable to your package resources and use it. > > e.g. > > macpro:~ stephane$ sudo echo "Compacting trash..." | > /Users/stephane/Library/Developer/Xcode/DerivedData/wall-e-btvgbaqrikqzcqavrorrfufgpfiw/Build/Products/Debug/wall-e > Compacting trash... > > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Lora Lozano <lora_lozano(a)filemaker.com> wrote: >> Thank you for your suggestion, Stephane. It definitely does what I want it to do, but since it also displays the broadcast text, I don’t think it’s a solution I can use. >> >> Thanks, >> Lora >> >>> On Apr 19, 2017, at 3:43 AM, Stephane Sudre <dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Maybe not a good suggestion (but at least it does output something to >>> the terminal(s)): >>> >>> #!/bin/sh >>> >>> /bin/echo "This is an installation announcement." | /usr/bin/wall >>> >>> exit 0 >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Lora Lozano <lora_lozano(a)filemaker.com> wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I have a postinstall script in my package. I’d like for it to echo something to the terminal if the user runs >>>> >>>> sudo installer -pkg <pathToPkg> -target / >>>> >>>> I see that the echo command in my postinstall script outputs to /var/log/install.log, and I can have it echo to a separate file also by using >>>> >>>> 2>&1 | tee -a "$logFile” >>>> >>>> However, can I output it to Terminal? >>>> >>>> Also, is there a way to pass a custom parameter to the installer command to be used by the postinstall script? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advanced. >>>> >>>> -Lora >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>>> Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/dev.iceberg%40gmail.c… >>>> >>>> This email sent to dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html >> > > > > -- > Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html -- Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Output to Terminal
by Stephane Sudre 19 Apr '17

19 Apr '17

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=C9WnUrJaRb15a2IY0BKIoQjmLwiVO+95xJsw6NfE+7g=; b=M5q+FMwNijBmwOskK4sr79YDDXsViybcSmQLQqQo4QUq7ee7cGEX4IqVe0d+v6VP+s IIXYSju6wwc9p7LSPvHVQWEqfu9Z5RVwMVwUmK/YXjZLnXOHGgQmalC4f+fMgCPNN9dD kiyySNuHAgc/F+r0xD2oasCsCRRWiRMb94t3sKEFpXvgW3uV6DxPTT4wIohnhkYyCUYe dWFGJkSxbedSP8v4jB/fOITytcx7Sm+cG++X/QXeOBvC4tU/JTYECFWtFfKhgJ8fsyXu DsZ0pG6nrkgerHhQP6NZxywKk70NY7EbqZwSDMvi/+YLv+Ai0SJS2elKMDATpf1IRusk xi7A== If this is the only issue with what you're trying to achieve, don't forget that wall(1) is part of Darwin, so you can get the source code and modify it: https://opensource.apple.com/tarballs/remote_cmds/remote_cmds-54.50.1.tar.gz If you force the undocumented nobanner option and remove the blanklikes by: 1. changing line 86 to int nobanner=1; 2. commenting lines 283 and 350. You can add your modified wall executable to your package resources and use it. e.g. macpro:~ stephane$ sudo echo "Compacting trash..." | /Users/stephane/Library/Developer/Xcode/DerivedData/wall-e-btvgbaqrikqzcqavrorrfufgpfiw/Build/Products/Debug/wall-e Compacting trash... On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:27 PM, Lora Lozano <lora_lozano(a)filemaker.com> wrote: > Thank you for your suggestion, Stephane. It definitely does what I want it to do, but since it also displays the broadcast text, I don’t think it’s a solution I can use. > > Thanks, > Lora > >> On Apr 19, 2017, at 3:43 AM, Stephane Sudre <dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Maybe not a good suggestion (but at least it does output something to >> the terminal(s)): >> >> #!/bin/sh >> >> /bin/echo "This is an installation announcement." | /usr/bin/wall >> >> exit 0 >> >> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Lora Lozano <lora_lozano(a)filemaker.com> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have a postinstall script in my package. I’d like for it to echo something to the terminal if the user runs >>> >>> sudo installer -pkg <pathToPkg> -target / >>> >>> I see that the echo command in my postinstall script outputs to /var/log/install.log, and I can have it echo to a separate file also by using >>> >>> 2>&1 | tee -a "$logFile” >>> >>> However, can I output it to Terminal? >>> >>> Also, is there a way to pass a custom parameter to the installer command to be used by the postinstall script? >>> >>> Thanks in advanced. >>> >>> -Lora >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/dev.iceberg%40gmail.c… >>> >>> This email sent to dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html > -- Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Output to Terminal
by Lora Lozano 19 Apr '17

19 Apr '17

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com Thank you for your suggestion, Stephane. It definitely does what I want it to do, but since it also displays the broadcast text, I don’t think it’s a solution I can use. Thanks, Lora > On Apr 19, 2017, at 3:43 AM, Stephane Sudre <dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Maybe not a good suggestion (but at least it does output something to > the terminal(s)): > > #!/bin/sh > > /bin/echo "This is an installation announcement." | /usr/bin/wall > > exit 0 > > On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Lora Lozano <lora_lozano(a)filemaker.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have a postinstall script in my package. I’d like for it to echo something to the terminal if the user runs >> >> sudo installer -pkg <pathToPkg> -target / >> >> I see that the echo command in my postinstall script outputs to /var/log/install.log, and I can have it echo to a separate file also by using >> >> 2>&1 | tee -a "$logFile” >> >> However, can I output it to Terminal? >> >> Also, is there a way to pass a custom parameter to the installer command to be used by the postinstall script? >> >> Thanks in advanced. >> >> -Lora >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/dev.iceberg%40gmail.c… >> >> This email sent to dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com > > > > -- > Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Output to Terminal
by Stephane Sudre 19 Apr '17

19 Apr '17

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zLnsldVv/jlp1Rkzh1UV7gmGuwD/d4OMFWHhm46JCoo=; b=pVIvISmurWk3ZNENNaquVRfgcs6scF0g42OAB4GQCAbqdPlED1cfC9hM3ndwhSbDhN lTkvm9Z1ERRtbrhgZ8cof3HBvRlxnF1nLOcf4vi/Za+ztvn5599WJAk64Fiv87KdpMax oSUhlb32xF/jjf0ty4k65YF1BImNcclXtFhPQW/d64Nip4IHruaqDF2dkLOU6zuDNR8V nYERi3njfblqcJaFAdwWccQcGJn3UopZBTr6PfHm7xiE72L63u0la7HBDLfrPx5mxmm1 gGnzcp0czExm072oOUzQ0Tgy8MKEFGhkBNiMBqgOGtK3r/hrReAqrmwFt0LTLjwPqf8d b5jw== Maybe not a good suggestion (but at least it does output something to the terminal(s)): #!/bin/sh /bin/echo "This is an installation announcement." | /usr/bin/wall exit 0 On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Lora Lozano <lora_lozano(a)filemaker.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I have a postinstall script in my package. I’d like for it to echo something to the terminal if the user runs > > sudo installer -pkg <pathToPkg> -target / > > I see that the echo command in my postinstall script outputs to /var/log/install.log, and I can have it echo to a separate file also by using > > 2>&1 | tee -a "$logFile” > > However, can I output it to Terminal? > > Also, is there a way to pass a custom parameter to the installer command to be used by the postinstall script? > > Thanks in advanced. > > -Lora > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/dev.iceberg%40gmail.c… > > This email sent to dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com -- Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Output to Terminal
by Lora Lozano 17 Apr '17

17 Apr '17

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com Hi, I have a postinstall script in my package. I’d like for it to echo something to the terminal if the user runs sudo installer -pkg <pathToPkg> -target / I see that the echo command in my postinstall script outputs to /var/log/install.log, and I can have it echo to a separate file also by using 2>&1 | tee -a "$logFile” However, can I output it to Terminal? Also, is there a way to pass a custom parameter to the installer command to be used by the postinstall script? Thanks in advanced. -Lora _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: How do you codesign a Packages .pkg?
by Stephane Sudre 03 Apr '17

03 Apr '17

Personally, I would not recommend using it (and also I'm not using it): - the signing procedure (during the build) fails on macOS Sierra because it's based on deprecated, obsolete and now broken APIs. - the signing procedure does take care of including the intermediate certificates. This means it works on most OS releases as the certificates have been included into the standard OS distributions for a while but there are still some old (think 10.5) OS versions that do not have some of them. And in this case, it can cause an issue. These 2 issues have been fixed in the next 1.2 version (and I'm not using productsign anymore to sign the development builds). So, please use productsign as recommended. On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 1:41 AM, Stephen Kay <sk(a)karma-lab.com> wrote: > I'm using Packages 1.1.3 - A short while ago I asked about code-signing a > package, and was referred to using the command line with 'productsign'. > > Another user here emailed me and said that in Packages, I could "set the > certificate" under the Project menu, and then it would automatically sign > the package. So I did that, installed my Installer Certificate, and it > certainly appears to work. > > Whether I sign it with the Packages certificate, or I sign it manually > using productsign, using 'pkgutil --check-signature' displays the exact > same information: "signed by a certificate trusted by Mac OS X" and the > exact same fingerprints for all 3 certificates. So seemingly there is no > difference between these two methods. > > I've also tested downloading and installing the auto-code-signed package > from the internet onto a virgin VM, on 10.10, 10.11 and 10.12 and it > certainly doesn't alert GateKeeper. So it seems to work just fine. > > Yet I see in the Packages documentation: > > > "While Packages can see and use the Developer ID certificate, at the time > of this writing, it does not produce a signed package or distribution > that is seen as valid by Gatekeeper - a required intermediate > certificate is missing -" > > "To work around this: > * Do not sign the packages and distributions with the corresponding > Packages feature. > * Use the productsign > <https://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ > ManPages/man1/productsign.1.html> (1) tool that is installed with the > Xcode tools (version 3.2.6 or later)." > > Since both of these methods seem to produce the same results with > 'pkgutil', is the above information outdated and it's OK to use the > auto-code-signing of the package by Packages? > > > Thanks, > - Stephen > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/dev.iceberg%40gmail.c… > > This email sent to dev.iceberg(a)gmail.com -- Packaging Resources - http://s.sudre.free.fr/Packaging.html _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Packages: limit installation to startup disk
by Mike Solin 03 Apr '17

03 Apr '17

_______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: Packages: limit installation to startup disk
by Stephen Kay 03 Apr '17

03 Apr '17

Thanks for the picture. I knew I saw that setting somewhere before! However, with "[x] Install on startup disk only" selected, I had hoped that the ability to see the "Change Install Location..." step/button would go away. Instead, you can still click on this button and see all the listed hard drives, but all of them have a warning sign on them except the startup drive. I had hoped to make this whole option go away - if it can only be installed on the startup drive, why do you need to see anything else? Thanks, - Stephen On 4/2/17 2:30 PM, "Oakman" <installer-dev-bounces+sk=karma-lab.com(a)lists.apple.com on behalf of oakman(a)iplantedtrees.com> wrote: > >On Apr 2, 2017, at 3:44PM, Stephen Kay wrote: > > >Is there any way to limit the installation to the startup disk? > >I could swear I saw a setting for this at one time but I cannot locate it >today for anything... > >Thanks, >- Stephen > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/sk%40karma-lab.com > >This email sent to sk(a)karma-lab.com > _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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Re: How do you codesign a Packages .pkg?
by Stephen Kay 02 Apr '17

02 Apr '17

I'm using Packages 1.1.3 - A short while ago I asked about code-signing a package, and was referred to using the command line with 'productsign'. Another user here emailed me and said that in Packages, I could "set the certificate" under the Project menu, and then it would automatically sign the package. So I did that, installed my Installer Certificate, and it certainly appears to work. Whether I sign it with the Packages certificate, or I sign it manually using productsign, using 'pkgutil --check-signature' displays the exact same information: "signed by a certificate trusted by Mac OS X" and the exact same fingerprints for all 3 certificates. So seemingly there is no difference between these two methods. I've also tested downloading and installing the auto-code-signed package from the internet onto a virgin VM, on 10.10, 10.11 and 10.12 and it certainly doesn't alert GateKeeper. So it seems to work just fine. Yet I see in the Packages documentation: "While Packages can see and use the Developer ID certificate, at the time of this writing, it does not produce a signed package or distribution that is seen as valid by Gatekeeper - a required intermediate certificate is missing -" "To work around this: * Do not sign the packages and distributions with the corresponding Packages feature. * Use the productsign <https://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ ManPages/man1/productsign.1.html> (1) tool that is installed with the Xcode tools (version 3.2.6 or later)." Since both of these methods seem to produce the same results with 'pkgutil', is the above information outdated and it's OK to use the auto-code-signing of the package by Packages? Thanks, - Stephen _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Installer-dev mailing list (Installer-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/installer-dev/site_archiver%40lists… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

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