December 2010 - Pro-apps-dev

Re: Why is there a difference...
by Brian Gardner 25 Dec '10

25 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=fHE13oS9IpPvUDn+dN1pNW5nOkB3D4a3DhXqRLpJ2CP44sriaphw+DX1MdVdnkZh; h=Received:References:In-Reply-To:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:X-Mailer:From:Subject:Date:To:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; I've had this problem a lot. Especially when working on a movie that involves a lot of cross-platform post production work. Metadata carrying gamma, or clues to the correct gamma, tend to get stripped out by some applications or during format conversions. (If the info was ever there.) Are there any tips, tricks, or docs which aid people in guessing the correct gamma? I assume that certain equipment have an associated gamma, and that certain software tends to either create certain gamma, or will default to assuming certain gamma and (mis)act accordingly. Has anyone ever compiled a list of these? So far, I find myself using Processetatus-Eliminatus far too much. ^_^ -- Brian Sent from my iPad On Dec 24, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Robert Monaghan <bob(a)gluetools.com> wrote: > Hi Patrick, > > You are looking at potentially two different problems. (or both.) > > 1.) Gamma Curve missmatch. > Gamma is a horribly misunderstood and often incorrectly applied to RGB imagery. > Wikipedia has a great set of articles to describe what Gamma is. I will skip the explanation and purpose. > But I will suggest that you read about it. > > On the Mac, we are confronted with a bunch of different gamma curves. They aren't 100% compatible, too. > Unfortunately there is no way to know which one to use on a given image. Most often guesswork is required. > Here are some that is used: > > - Gamma 2.2 > - Gamma 1.8 > - Gamma 2.2222 > - Rec709 > and > - sRGB > > When you have an image that is (lets say) Rec709, and you want to apply a matrix for color correction, > it is easy to mistakenly use a inverse Gamma 2.2 curve to make the image linear, do the work, and then add a Gamma 2.2 curve > for use in RGB. Because Rec709 isn't the same as Gamma 2.2, you will have introduced an error, which will make the colors look wrong. > > The only way to make an image properly linear, so that you can do proper image processing operations, is to the use the inverse Gamma, of the same > type that the image currently uses. That way, when your round-trip some effects, etc. The colors won't shift. > > > 2.) BT-R.601 vs. BT-R.709 colorspace missmatch. > Another possibility, is that the footage was shot using a video colorspace that QuickTIme doesn't understand. When this happens, > QuickTime (or Final Cut Pro) will default to a "standard" matrix. This causes the imagery to shift color, too. This is typical with the recent bunch > of DSLR cameras that can shoot video. This tends to shift colors as well. > > 3.) A combination of 1 and 2. > > I have hit this problem before and it is frustrating to have to troubleshoot. > My gut feeling is that problem #1 is your culprit, but hard to know for sure. > > Good Luck! > > bob. > > > > On Dec 21, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Patrick Sheffield wrote: > >> >> ...between how Quartz Composer processes the Screen blend mode and how Final Cut Pro and Motion do it? >> >> This is an image screened over itself in Final Cut Pro/Motion: >> >> <fcs1.jpg> >> >> And in Quartz Composer: >> >> <quartz1.jpg> >> >> In Quartz Composer it's flatter and considerably more red than FCP. >> >> If I perform a Screen Blend (the inverse of the multiplication of the inverse) mathematically, I get the same result as Quartz, but I need to figure out what FCP/Motion are doing differently. >> >> Does anyone have any insight? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Patrick Sheffield >> Sheffield Softworks >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/bob%40gluetools.com >> >> This email sent to bob(a)gluetools.com > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/brianrg%40earthlink.net > > This email sent to brianrg(a)earthlink.net _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Why is there a difference...
by Robert Monaghan 24 Dec '10

24 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Hi Patrick, You are looking at potentially two different problems. (or both.) 1.) Gamma Curve missmatch. Gamma is a horribly misunderstood and often incorrectly applied to RGB imagery. Wikipedia has a great set of articles to describe what Gamma is. I will skip the explanation and purpose. But I will suggest that you read about it. On the Mac, we are confronted with a bunch of different gamma curves. They aren't 100% compatible, too. Unfortunately there is no way to know which one to use on a given image. Most often guesswork is required. Here are some that is used: - Gamma 2.2 - Gamma 1.8 - Gamma 2.2222 - Rec709 and - sRGB When you have an image that is (lets say) Rec709, and you want to apply a matrix for color correction, it is easy to mistakenly use a inverse Gamma 2.2 curve to make the image linear, do the work, and then add a Gamma 2.2 curve for use in RGB. Because Rec709 isn't the same as Gamma 2.2, you will have introduced an error, which will make the colors look wrong. The only way to make an image properly linear, so that you can do proper image processing operations, is to the use the inverse Gamma, of the same type that the image currently uses. That way, when your round-trip some effects, etc. The colors won't shift. 2.) BT-R.601 vs. BT-R.709 colorspace missmatch. Another possibility, is that the footage was shot using a video colorspace that QuickTIme doesn't understand. When this happens, QuickTime (or Final Cut Pro) will default to a "standard" matrix. This causes the imagery to shift color, too. This is typical with the recent bunch of DSLR cameras that can shoot video. This tends to shift colors as well. 3.) A combination of 1 and 2. I have hit this problem before and it is frustrating to have to troubleshoot. My gut feeling is that problem #1 is your culprit, but hard to know for sure. Good Luck! bob. On Dec 21, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Patrick Sheffield wrote: > > ...between how Quartz Composer processes the Screen blend mode and how Final Cut Pro and Motion do it? > > This is an image screened over itself in Final Cut Pro/Motion: > > <fcs1.jpg> > > And in Quartz Composer: > > <quartz1.jpg> > > In Quartz Composer it's flatter and considerably more red than FCP. > > If I perform a Screen Blend (the inverse of the multiplication of the inverse) mathematically, I get the same result as Quartz, but I need to figure out what FCP/Motion are doing differently. > > Does anyone have any insight? > > Thanks, > > Patrick Sheffield > Sheffield Softworks > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/bob%40gluetools.com > > This email sent to bob(a)gluetools.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Why is there a difference...
by Ben Syverson 22 Dec '10

22 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Patrick, This is a result of Radar #8301052: Motion does not correctly interpret still images. You need to be using video rather than stills. Here is a copy + paste of that bug: Summary: Motion destructively interprets still images, leading to image data corruption immediately upon input. Steps to Reproduce: 1. Import an into the Motion composition. 2. Choose File > Export, and in the dialog, switch "Export:" to "Current Frame," and "After Export:" to "Import into project." Give the file a unique name and click the Export button. 3. Repeat step 2 as many times as you like. You will notice that the image gets progressively brighter. See attached for screen recording. Expected Results: I expect to be able to input and output images without massive color transformations. Actual Results: Motion does something terribly wrong on import, creating a lossy input/output cycle. Regression: QuickTime movies do not seem to be affected. Hope this helps, Ben On Dec 21, 2010, at 7:36 PM, Patrick Sheffield wrote: > Okay - so I think this is not just a gamma or a color space thing - here are the results of my tests: > > First of all FCP and Motion seem to get the same results, so I'm only enclosing the Motion results just now. In every case, I exported a Million color TIFF, cropped that in Photoshop, then saved a JPEG for size. > > This image was made by taking an image into Motion and placing a copy of it on a layer above with the blend mode set to Screen. This also matches what I get from FCP and FxScript - which makes sense, FxScript use FCP's built in routines. > > <builtin1.jpg> > > This next image was done within Motion using a Quartz Composition with FxFactory by taking a Screen Blend node and feeding the image input into both the foreground and background connectors. > > <fx1.jpg> > > Finally, performing the same action with my own FxPlug -> Quartz Composer: > > <ss1.jpg> > > FxFactory is slightly brighter than my own, but neither come close to what Motion/FCP does. > > Again, all of these used the same image, have passed thru Motion, and are rendered and exported from Motion, so I don't expect them to have different gammas. > > I also wrote a screen blend mode with a Core Image Kernel that did a pixel = 1.0 - ((1.0 - pixel1) * (1.0 - pixel2)) which did the same thing as Quartz Composer's built in Screen Blend node. > > As I am trying to replace an FxScript plugin, I really need to figure out what FCP and Motion are doing because just using Quartz Composer's Screen Blend node produces a result that I can't use. > > Any other thoughts? > > Patrick Sheffield > Sheffield Softworks > _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Why is there a difference...
by Patrick Sheffield 22 Dec '10

22 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=tYFEtZB2ADhXMGv9iIST+HZGI/svdOsbnwIhDn4z+wBeQ28u2SrzCYj10jpknrOt; h=Received:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Message-Id:References:To:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Why is there a difference...
by Darrin Cardani 22 Dec '10

22 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Why is there a difference...
by Darrin Cardani 22 Dec '10

22 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Final Cut Pro getInputImage() returning up-side-down image?
by Darrin Cardani 21 Dec '10

21 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com On Dec 21, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Garrick Meeker wrote: > It was Paul Miller who originally posted this, so I thought he might have filed a bug already. D'oh! Mea culpa. Sorry about the confusion. Someday I'll learn to read. > I just filed #8795939 with sample code (based on Options Dialog) to reproduce it. It seems 100% reproducible and consistent in FCP but hopefully that's not dependent on my preferences or something. Thanks! > > It's easy to work around (I just assume kFxImageOrigin_BOTTOM_LEFT regardless of what FCP tells us) but I'll need to update our plugins if this bug gets fixed. > > On Dec 21, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Darrin Cardani wrote: > >> Garrick, >> I did not file a bug about it, as I don't know all the details. I wanted you to file one with a code snippet as there might be something specific about the way you're calling it that causes this to occur. >> As for its consistency, I don't really know, since I don't know what circumstances cause it to happen. >> >> Darrin >> >> On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Garrick Meeker wrote: >> >>> I think I just ran into this in FCP. In Motion 4 it seems to work correctly. I was just caching the image from the last render call but I'd like to avoid hogging this memory. Did you file a bug about this? Is there any workaround in FCP, or is it reliable enough that we can assume an upside down image (until a future version of FCP fixes this)? >>> >>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 12:40 PM, Darrin Cardani wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 11:57 AM, Paul Miller wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 10/19/2010 1:55 PM, Paul Miller wrote: >>>>>> In response to a button (custom UIButton view) press I'm calling >>>>>> getInputImage() to fetch the full-frame (progressive) image for the >>>>>> current frame. The returned image has an orientation of top-left, but >>>>>> it's actually up-side-down in memory. What did I do wrong? >>>>> >>>>> Oops - sorry for the C-style function format. I'm referring to the getInputBitmap method of the FxTemoralImageAPI. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hmm.... it doesn't sound like you've done anything wrong. I can't imagine a situation where we would send you an upside down image and it would be correct. Could you file a bug about this? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Darrin >>>> -- >>>> Darrin Cardani >>>> dcardani(a)apple.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>>> Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/garrick%40digitalanarch… >>>> >>>> This email sent to garrick(a)digitalanarchy.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/dcardani%40apple.com >>> >>> This email sent to dcardani(a)apple.com >> >> -- >> Darrin Cardani >> dcardani(a)apple.com >> >> > -- Darrin Cardani dcardani(a)apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Final Cut Pro getInputImage() returning up-side-down image?
by Garrick Meeker 21 Dec '10

21 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com It was Paul Miller who originally posted this, so I thought he might have filed a bug already. I just filed #8795939 with sample code (based on Options Dialog) to reproduce it. It seems 100% reproducible and consistent in FCP but hopefully that's not dependent on my preferences or something. It's easy to work around (I just assume kFxImageOrigin_BOTTOM_LEFT regardless of what FCP tells us) but I'll need to update our plugins if this bug gets fixed. On Dec 21, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Darrin Cardani wrote: > Garrick, > I did not file a bug about it, as I don't know all the details. I wanted you to file one with a code snippet as there might be something specific about the way you're calling it that causes this to occur. > As for its consistency, I don't really know, since I don't know what circumstances cause it to happen. > > Darrin > > On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Garrick Meeker wrote: > >> I think I just ran into this in FCP. In Motion 4 it seems to work correctly. I was just caching the image from the last render call but I'd like to avoid hogging this memory. Did you file a bug about this? Is there any workaround in FCP, or is it reliable enough that we can assume an upside down image (until a future version of FCP fixes this)? >> >> On Oct 19, 2010, at 12:40 PM, Darrin Cardani wrote: >> >>> >>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 11:57 AM, Paul Miller wrote: >>> >>>> On 10/19/2010 1:55 PM, Paul Miller wrote: >>>>> In response to a button (custom UIButton view) press I'm calling >>>>> getInputImage() to fetch the full-frame (progressive) image for the >>>>> current frame. The returned image has an orientation of top-left, but >>>>> it's actually up-side-down in memory. What did I do wrong? >>>> >>>> Oops - sorry for the C-style function format. I'm referring to the getInputBitmap method of the FxTemoralImageAPI. >>> >>> >>> Hmm.... it doesn't sound like you've done anything wrong. I can't imagine a situation where we would send you an upside down image and it would be correct. Could you file a bug about this? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Darrin >>> -- >>> Darrin Cardani >>> dcardani(a)apple.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/garrick%40digitalanarch… >>> >>> This email sent to garrick(a)digitalanarchy.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/dcardani%40apple.com >> >> This email sent to dcardani(a)apple.com > > -- > Darrin Cardani > dcardani(a)apple.com > > _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Re: Why is there a difference...
by Darrin Cardani 21 Dec '10

21 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Patrick, Can you elaborate on what process you're using Final Cut Pro/Motion? Is this from within a plugin, or are you comparing the built-in blend modes with QC? (In other words, are you creating a project and using the functionality of the app without any plugins?) The first thing that comes to mind is that they may be operating in different color spaces which would cause the color values to be displayed differently. But that's just a guess. Darrin On Dec 21, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Patrick Sheffield wrote: > > ...between how Quartz Composer processes the Screen blend mode and how Final Cut Pro and Motion do it? > > This is an image screened over itself in Final Cut Pro/Motion: > > <fcs2.jpg> > > And in Quartz Composer: > > <quartz2.jpg> > > In Quartz Composer it's flatter and considerably more red than FCP. > > If I perform a Screen Blend (the inverse of the multiplication of the inverse) mathematically, I get the same result as Quartz, but I need to figure out what FCP/Motion are doing differently. > > Does anyone have any insight? > > Thanks, > > Patrick Sheffield > Sheffield Softworks > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/dcardani%40apple.com > > This email sent to dcardani(a)apple.com -- Darrin Cardani dcardani(a)apple.com _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0

Why is there a difference...
by Patrick Sheffield 21 Dec '10

21 Dec '10

site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com Delivered-To: pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com Domainkey-signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=H0KXn3Api3Cxas8bpCBLrKloMLPgw9VbbYP0TP20Y1Q7+Hmc0YiCRXj31exW4l9v; h=Received:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Message-Id:References:To:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; ...between how Quartz Composer processes the Screen blend mode and how Final Cut Pro and Motion do it? This is an image screened over itself in Final Cut Pro/Motion: And in Quartz Composer: In Quartz Composer it's flatter and considerably more red than FCP. If I perform a Screen Blend (the inverse of the multiplication of the inverse) mathematically, I get the same result as Quartz, but I need to figure out what FCP/Motion are doing differently. Does anyone have any insight? Thanks, Patrick Sheffield Sheffield Softworks _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Pro-apps-dev mailing list (Pro-apps-dev(a)lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/pro-apps-dev/site_archiver%40lists.a… This email sent to site_archiver(a)lists.apple.com

1 0