Re: Problems with current Apple X11 package
Re: Problems with current Apple X11 package
- Subject: Re: Problems with current Apple X11 package
- From: magenta <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0800
On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 09:23:07AM -0500, John J. Francini wrote:
> At 20:08 -0800 1/29/03, magenta wrote:
> >Okay, I just upgraded to Jaguar, and decided that while I was doing that I
> >should go ahead and try Apple's X11 instead of XDarwin. I have found the
> >following pros and cons:
> >
> >Pros:
> >- The hardware OpenGL is very nice (though its vertex array support seems
> > broken)
> >
> >Cons:
> >- The package doesn't seem to include the Xlib header files, and I
> > can't find them anywhere on the Apple or OpenDarwin sites
>
> That's because it's in its own package -- X11SDKforMacOSX -- which
> has to be downloaded and installed separately. Separating out the
> developer bits from those needed for ordinary end-users is quite
> common for Apple. If you go to the X11 download page at
> <http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/> and scroll all the way to the
> bottom, you'll see the download link for the SDK on the bottom right.
Ah. Not exactly visible, is it? I looked all over that page, the download
page, and the OpenDarwin page and never saw the SDK, probably because that
"developer's kit" link looks exactly like the "Upgrade to OSX 10.2" ad
right above it. I think the page needs to be reworked a little...
> >- The X desktop isn't clipped to the actual screen desktop, so my
> > windows (using pwm) have their title bar obscured by the menu bar
> > (very annoying)
>
> Only Apple's window manager knows about the menubar; the others from
> UNIX-land do not. It's the job of the window manager to deal with
> "sacred" areas, not the X Server. Also, given that some applications
> (such as QuickTime Player or DVD Player) can turn off the menubar for
> a full-screen display, there's precedent for the X server not being
> constrained to only the space below the menubar.
That sounds like a religious issue, but it's one which, in practice, makes
for a very difficult experience. Could there at least be a way for
AppleX11 to disable the menubar, then?
> >- X11.app doesn't set my path correctly (whereas XDawin.app did),
> > or maybe this is an issue with Jaguar vs. 10.1, but in any case it makes
> > my old .xinitrc fail badly
> >- It assumes too much about the window manager being quartz-wm, and ends up
> > integrating very poorly with other WMs which don't have such atrocious
> > accessibility issues; specifically, window raising and focus are horribly
> > awkward
>
> Quartz-wm definitely needs help to make it play better with all the
> other Mac app siblings, especially around window raising and focus.
> However, for my purposes, it's so much less jarring and awkward to
> use a window manager that _tries_ to be Mac-like, rather than one
> that has a completely different set of rules, such as
> <insert-your-favorite-WM-here>. The X server also needs to be better
> at translating Mac-specific gestures, such as command-tab to cycle
> through windows, into something a window manager can deal with.
Yeah, but I don't want to run a Mac-like WM. Part of why I run X11 is
because I develop primarily for X11, and I'd much rather stick with pwm.
At least you said "for my purposes," rather than asserting it as a
universal...
> >Is there a way to configure the X server to not consider the menu bar as
> >part of the desktop? If so, where, if not, why not?
>
> I don't believe there is. Why? Because that's the job of the window
> manager, not the X server. Since most of the other fine WMs are
> open-source, I would think it shouldn't take too much programming to
> add a special case to them to hold the menubar area sacred and change
> the origins of any incoming windows to avoid it.
But that part of the screen is essentially inaccessible to the window
manager anyway...
Anyway, thanks for your responses.
--
http://trikuare.cx
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