Re: X11 wish list
Re: X11 wish list
- Subject: Re: X11 wish list
- From: Nathan <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 20:54:42 -0600
On 8/9/07, Ben Byer <email@hidden> wrote:
> I've posted a couple times on this list before, but let me take the
> opportunity to formally introduce myself.
>
> My name is Ben Byer; I work for Apple in the CoreOS group, on the BSD
> Technology team -- we try to make OS X friendly for UNIX users.
> Although many engineers at Apple contribute to the effort that results
> in the X11.app you receive on your OS X DVD, I believe I'm the one
> here who puts the most focussed energy into X11.app.
As a fairly long-time member of this list, but rare contributer, I'd
like to say "Thanks for the communication!" This list has seemed (to
me) mostly like a fairly quiet black hole until recently.
> Ernie's comment earlier was spot-on -- filing bug reports with Apple
> is the best way to make sure your bug receives attention. I know that
> it can be discouraging to file a bug report and not see your issue
> promptly responded to, but I can absolutely promise you that every
> single bug report you send in is looked at by an actual human being,
> often at several levels. We use them to
Speaking of black holes, I'd like to point out that Apple's bug
reporting system is quite like one as well. I've never received so
much as an acknowledgement for most of the bugs I've filed. It's
quite disconcerting to not be able to see anyone else's bug reports as
well. Third, none of my bugs have ever been fixed. And fourth, I've
given up on more than one bug report because of the stupid "1-hour
timeout" on the bug system. (I know you're not in charge of the bug
system and that it does have its uses -- I just had to rant)
> This email is getting a bit long, so let me try to address the
> specific issues you raised, and I'll save the rest for other emails:
> [snip]
> We always welcome ideas for enhancements, although I'll say that the
> current copy/paste behavior is, in fact, buggy -- which is to say, it
> is not perfect, but the things that are supposed to work do not always
> work. More in a future message.
Cool. More info coming in the future!
> > In fact, I propose starting up a new thread dedicated to identifying
> > as many X11 bugs and issues as we can. Often even little things get
> > the opportunity to get addressed only because the person coding up
> > some related fix happens to be working in the vicinity. So don't be
> > bashful - start mentioning all those petty but annoying issues like
> > poor mouse arrow colors, odd xterm display defaults etc.
>
> I'm not sure which xterm issue you have in mind, but the incorrectly
> colored mouse cursor issue was (personally) frustrating. It's a good
> example of a bug that I *know* exists, due to the multitude of bug
> reports we have received. However, I tried several times on several
> machines with several different configurations, and I wasn't able to
> reproduce it. If I can't make it happen, I can't fix it -- partially
> because I don't know where to look for the problem (although in this
> case, good patches were available for other sources), and partially
> because I can't test any fix I write unless I can reproduce the
> problem it was trying to fix.
I can help you there. By coincidence, I reproduced the bug *today*.
I bet someone else has an easier way to reproduce this bug -- if you
do, please tell us! But anyway, here's how I reproduced it:
1) Set up an Edubuntu 7.04 classroom server on a dual dual-core
(4-core) C2D supermicro mo/bo 2-U Chenbro chassis server. I used the
"64-bit PC (AMD64) classroom server CD" located on this page:
http://ubuntu-releases.cs.umn.edu/edubuntu/feisty/
...although I highly suspect that the "PC (Intel x86) classroom server
CD" would probably give you the same results if you need to install it
in VMware or Parallels which may or may not work with 64-bit.
1a) You may want to go into "system -> admin -> services" and turn off
the dhcp server that's on by default in the server edition so your
network admins don't get on your case.
2) Set up the networking such that you can ping the edubuntu server
from (in my case) a MacBook Pro C2D (LCD screen version).
3) On the Edubuntu classroom server, enable XDMCP. One of my
coworkers actually did this step. I thought it was just a matter of
going into "system -> admin -> login items" and enabling xdmcp somehow
and rebooting, but here's my coworkers documented process:
a. sudo nano /etc/gdm/gdm.conf
b. In gdm.conf, find [xdmcp] and change Enable=false to Enable=true
and set Honor Indirect to true. Also uncomment
RemoteGreeter=/usr/lib/gdm/gdmlogin
c. Now go to System-Administration-Login Window and click on the
"Remote" tab. Change the style to "Plain". You can change XDMCP
preferences under "Configure XDMCP" in the lower right.
4) There's a bug in the gnome keyboard layout for this version of
ubuntu when using XDMCP, so follow the instructions in the last
paragraph of:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=2539412&postcount=4
(To summarize, after getting to the appropriate location, I
double-clicked on the "layout" key, entered in some random letters,
and then exited the program. That worked for me)
5) With X11 NOT running on your MacBook Pro C2D, connect to the ubuntu
server by running the following command, where XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX is the
IP address of the ubuntu server:
/usr/X11R6/bin/Xquartz -query XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX
Voila! Nasty yellow curser.
6) I fixed the cursor problem for myself by following this, which
mentions a source code patch and points to a replacement binary:
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20060316124704289&query=x11
Does that help at all?
Just for good measure, I reformatted the above and submitted it as Bug
ID# 5400510.
> > Let's make X11 as good as it can be. Time is running out, October is
> > fast approaching, and we have nothing to lose by asking...
>
> I'm all all for you asking, and I appreciate all of the suggestions
> you can make, and I promise to take them seriously and to fix them if
> I am able, given the resources available to me and the rest of the
> people at Apple who work on X11.app. In return, I ask you (the
> collective you) to have some patience -- I will not always be able to
> respond to emails, but I will try to chime in when I have something
> helpful to add.
I think we all understand being busy, but the less silence on Apple's
side, the better. :-)
> With regards to October -- the nice part about releasing X11.app with
> OS X is that it means it is available to everyone who uses the
> software. Unfortunately, it creates a lot more work, as we do quite a
> bit of internal testing before releasing it to the world. This means
> that the X11.app that comes with OS X will often not be the most
> current version, and there is a significant lag between when you
> report a bug, when we reproduce it, when we fix it, when the fix is
> tested and integrated into the rest of the operating system, and when
> you will see the result of your bug report.
>
> Speaking as Ben, the X.org developer (as opposed to Ben, the Apple OS
> engineer) -- I hope that most of the development for X11.app will
> happen as part of the X.org development process. That will make it
> easier for you (the user or developer) to participate in the process;
> it means that X11.app will automatically receive updates and fixes as
> part of the X.org project, and it means you will be able to download
> newer (albeit unsupported by Apple) version in between OS releases.
> When appropriate, we will then roll those fixes back into OS X.
The only X11 bugs that I've been bothered by are the "yellow-cursor",
"use ssh -Y, not ssh -X", and "copy/paste is inconsistent" bugs.
That sentence pretty much sums up the majority of the messages
submitted to this list for the last two years, by the way. If you got
those first and last bugs fixed, and took out the -X option from ssh,
this list would be nearly silent! ;-)
~ Nathan
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